Source: Ep316: I Was Told to Cease & Desist & Threatened With Excommunication by the LDS Church Channel: Mormonish Podcast Published: May 5, 2026 | Archived: May 24, 2026

Video: Ep316: I Was Told to Cease & Desist & Threatened With Excommunication by the LDS Church
Channel: Mormonish Podcast
Published: May 5, 2026
Duration: 1:58:32
Views: 11,919
Category: Entertainment
Video ID: n1FbJSs5k-k

Description

During the process of writing and preparing his new book, “Joseph Smith: The Architect of Mormonism / A Topical Guide” for publication, the LDS church sent author Ganesh Cherian a cease and desist letter.

The legal back and forth that followed is very interesting, especially in light of the recent lawsuit against John Dehlin and Mormon Stories by the LDS Church.

Do both of these legal maneuvers indicate the LDS church is determined to silence anyone producing criticisms of the church? Are they trying to stop healthy criticism and dialogue before it even gets started?

Ganesh Cherian joins Mormonish to tell his story of going toe to toe with the LDS church.

You won’t want to miss this!

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Transcript — YouTube panel (human-authored)

0:00 Hi everybody. Welcome to Mormonishers podcast. I’m Rebecca. I am joined again by one of my very favorite guests and actually probably sort of a co-host because he’s on all the time. Ganesha Sherian. How are you Ganesha? I’m I’m great and it’s lovely to be with you. Such a treat. Yeah. And it’s funny because I was out of the country. I was in Rome and we did try to do the podcast on this topic but my my internet connection was so slow. I was moving like this and I thought that just doesn’t lend itself very well and my voice was lagging. So then horrifyingly enough I found myself not talking very much because of the L. I mean we can’t have that, right? We can’t have a Mormonish [laughter] episode where I’m not overtalking the guest. It just wouldn’t be Mormonish. So [laughter] anyway, I’m back. Ganesha is in New Zealand. I’m in Utah and the stars have aligned and we are going to do this again. But I’m glad because the topic

0:55 given what we released what will be last week about Landon and his excommunication. This all plays into some kind of big wider systemic picture. Um don’t you think Ganesha? Because we’re going to be talking about Ganesha’s own experience that I didn’t even really understand what had happened a couple years ago. So yeah, you guys are going to be really interested in this. Yeah. And I think there’s there’s a lot going on in the world of Mormonism and particularly now that um President Oaks is the president of the church. So these these things are coming to a head and one of them of course is the lawsuit against Mormon stories. And that seems to I guess hit home particularly to our age group who are who are around that same in that same particularly 50s era who have grown up in um in an 80s and 90s mcconi um understanding of truth being truth and needing to either defend it or promote it. And that’s kind of the the ideas that we’ve grown up with and we are now of course commenting on as as older adults in the in the space.

2:14 And at the same time, the the landscape is shifting dramatically. And so how is that being dealt with by the church um particularly by um leaders of the church and top leadership as they think about what the next what the future of the church is and how they’re either going to defend it or promote it. And so we’ve seen a number of changes over the the the last little while which for many of us in that you know 40s 50 age group is it seems crazy. Yeah. And yet from a from wild, you know, things that we never thought. And of course, that’s been a topic of conversation a lot. Uh and and yet the the landscape is changing dramatically and particularly for younger members of the church as they think about what the church means in their life. And at the same time, we have this wide range of people who are younger, people who are our age, and then people who are more senior and where they see the value proposition of

3:16 the church in their lives. of course um the senior leadership of the church are in their 90s. So they’re even, you know, another generation maybe even two removed from from these kinds of things. And so we fighting a kind of a a existential crisis in quite different ways and um and this affects what is the public discourse and for different age groups and generations. So I I think that that’s fascinating and maybe we can talk a little bit about that today as we talk about some of the legality issues and some of the ecclesiastic issues that are playing out in the church in this current moment.

3:59 Yeah, I like what you said because ever since, you know, Landon got his excommunication letter last week, you know, and it said stuff like, you know, you’re not being truthful about the principles and, you know, about the doctrines. And I’m thinking, but we are pretty truthful on our podcast. We use mostly faithful sources, you know, and we explain this from, like you said, our perspective growing up in the 70s, 80s, 90s church, but today that’s not necessarily the truth, right? My truth was we could not worship the cross. We couldn’t have anything to do with the cross. The truth today is we’ve always used the cross, you know? So, it’s just this weird juxiposition, but I sort of I took exception in the letter, you know, because it was about the podcast, you know, and just saying, you know, that we don’t we’re not truthful. And I’m like, we try extremely hard to be truthful, you know, and in my mind, we are completely truthful. You may not want to hear that truth at all, you know, but to me, um, truth is not relative like that.

5:00 So, I think it, you know, you just see the things, like you said, all coming to a head. You have the John Delin lawsuit. You have Landon’s excommunication. Those two things started right about the same time last October when they started trying to contact Landon and when they started contacting John right after, you know, President Oaks kind of took the helm, so conspiracy-minded me is like, well, this is interesting, you know, and then I’m talking to you about it and you’re like, well, they did this to me, right? And I did not necessarily know your story. So, I think we can talk about all of this. your story may just kind of be a shot across the bow for what happened, you know, is happening right now. And I think it’s a tip of an iceberg. I think we’re going to see a lot of this. If you remember that presentation that President Oaks gave and RFM did an episode on it. It basically said, “We need more excommunications. We need to get these

5:51 people out. The people that are talking about things that we don’t want talked about, you know, whether they were true or not in the past, we don’t want them talked about. And so we may be seeing a tip of an iceberg scenario. So I’m excited for you to share your scenario because I think it really really informs what’s happening now. So pull up your slides whenever you’re ready because this you guys this is we’re like really seriously this is what they did to Ganesh our Ganesh. [laughter] Well um yeah so this goes back almost three years ago. So, and I and at the time I was working on my book, I was very optimistic that the book would come out, you know, any moment because I, you know, naive really because all authors are. [laughter] Yes. Ah, so naive. Um, so and and and so it’s kind of a um a really good example of two parts of the church which may not necessarily have the same agendas. the corporate legal church structure and the ecclesiastical

6:57 more um membership uh with local priesthood leaders. that those two aspects of the church which um yeah may not always talk to each other may have different agendas and also um may come up in conflict with each other but yet they’re trying to work towards a similar end which is that you know they want the church to be vibrant and right and survive into the future right so um so hopefully my my experience and it’s it’s it’s minuscule in comparison to what’s going on with John Dylan and Mormon stories. And I just want to make that clear, but it gives me huge empathy for John. And also maybe just by focusing on my understanding and the things that happened to me, we can give a good kind of overview of what is what the playing ideas are going on in the background that might be, you know, affecting this. Yeah. No, I think we can learn from it.

7:58 Absolutely. Because like I said, I think it was sort of a shot across the bow, you know, three years ago and now they’re doubling down and going at people even harder. Yeah. And I and I think that that it comes really to and I would lay it at the feet of President Oaks um for a couple of reasons and and and as we go through this presentation, maybe I can share why I think that might be the case. But firstly, I’ll tell you the story and then we’ll look at the moving parts and understand what’s going on.

8:29 So, I’ll just share my screen now and it will it’s interesting because everything that’s happening now, we’re all getting the impression that President Oaks was just uh you know, behind the scenes while President Nelson were do was doing all these things that Oaks knew h this is not good and I’m going to have to undo this, right? temple announcements all grandiose and the word Mormon. I just, you know, chomping at the bit to get out there and correct everything just like Nelson was chomping at the bit to correct everything from before. And that’s really not inspiration. That’s not how God works. But I think it’s it’s pretty clear. You can sort of see it now. It’s a pattern and it goes it speaks to the ego that is at the top and the under and maybe you know and to be generous the the expectation and responsibility that happens when you are in charge you know that whatever agenda you might have or thoughts you know you need to act on them because you’re now the person who’s

9:34 in the hot seat and very much I think that’s case for President Oaks and just and we we know this about right because we know that he was brought into the to the apostilhip in 1984 with a legality around particularly uh gay marriage. you know, the the threat that gay marriage posed to the American um legal system and he did a number of things that that implemented through to you know Hawaii and then to Prop 8 which um which became a big and and also even the [clears throat] 2015 exclusion policy.

10:17 So these are ways in which LGBTQ plus impact the church and its demographics and you know public relations. Uh so he’s that’s one of his core mandates that he was given right at the very beginning beginning by Spencer W. Kimble and he’s carried through and really championed and you know there’s been a number of debacles related to that which are really are really problematic. Um I think one of the other areas that I that yeah and look the church is full of lawyers um which is a problem in its own right a because that’s kind of the phariseaical church that you know Jesus denounced in the New Testament. Um but it’s also a an understanding of power dynamics when it comes to uh organizations uh particularly political structures and and the ways that legal people you know thread the needle between these really tough situations and we currently have a first presidency which has twothirds lawyer in it lawyers in it right and and a large proportion of the you know

11:33 apostles and certainly significant portion of the 70s. So this is a a big deal. Legality is the mechanism by which the future of the church goes forward and Oaks represents that in ways that Nelson did not. It’s true and and it’s power. I’ve been talking to Landon about this. Of course, we’ve been talking about a lot of things since last week with the excommunication, but the church doesn’t have actual power. It can’t bring down fire, lightning. It can’t zap you. Its power is legality, lawsuits, money funding these getting involved in the political situation, trying to manipulate things like you mentioned Hawaii samesex marriage, Prop 8, same-sex marriage, November 15th exclusion. Every time they do this, try to wield this power that they have through their money, it it just does not work out for the church, it makes them look worse and worse. And I think hindsight maybe a hundred years from now when they try to see what happened those

12:36 incidences where they tried to reach into the political scenario and influence things through legal means you know that is going to that is kind of the undoing I think but they don’t see it because they are lawyers and that’s how they do wield the power the power of God is wielded through lawyers that’s the reality and uh I put a small plug for my book Um, I have a chapter on lawyers and you know, of course, the the Book of Mormon speaks against lawyers and Joseph had been involved in a couple of lawsuits prior to the Book of Mormon being written. And as a poor, marginalized person, the law did not work for him.

13:17 But he gets to Ohio, he starts to understand how the law works and how lawyers might work for him. This changes his perspective. By 1838, he is engaging lawyers. He’s studying to become a lawyer and when he when Nauvoo is set up in 1840 the city charter is packed with legal means and which Joseph wields as the municipal court judge. So you know the idea that it goes uh from a Book of Mormon that denounces lawyers as corrupt and conspiratorial and then becomes a lawyer and uses those conspiracies against other people. This is the story of the church and its function and longevity and survival. So this is Yeah.

14:05 No, and they have no problem using that. I mean, when you hear John Delin tell the story of the mediation, they had the lawsuit waving it in his face. They wouldn’t show it to him. Here’s a $4 million lawsuit. Do you want this? I mean, do you know what I mean? Talk about power. They have no real power. They can’t use priesthood power to zap him or anything. money, lawyers, fear over lawsuits. That is where their power is. And that’s just not cool. Let me just [laughter] say that.

14:36 Well, the other part of that is it doesn’t work for the rising generation because they just see that as bullying. You know, we see it as bullying, but they especially see it. It’s it actually highlights the church’s lack of power because it suggests you know that I mean look it’s Norman stories is two employees um a few you know contractors and and a board that oversees it and and the effectively it looks like the full fury of the church’s legal system you know you know deciding that this is the hill it wants to die on that is actually a sign of no power, you know, that’s uh an evidence of no power. And I think that young people and and even people our age, you know, we we there might be some people who are, you know, picking for a fight, but there will be a lot of people who go this is stupid and this just undermines any credibility that the church has as a institution of integrity because it just looks I mean it would be

15:39 different if you know the church was tiny and it you know it has you know problems with the people around it, right? But when you become a thousand pound gorilla, right, trillion dollar gorilla, trillion dollar gorilla and you are you are squashing ants, it just the the juxosition of that just looks wrong. Yeah. Feels wrong. And um and it and it it doesn’t send any great message. It sends the message of we have no power than the money and legality that we have backing us which you know we got that that undermines any moral right or superiority.

16:22 Exactly. They’re used to having the moral high ground. They’re used to being the one that was persecuted. That’s been their mantra and their story forever. But we saw that in temple building. They were no longer, oh, help us. No, now you’re the bully. Right. And I saw a post today I thought was so interesting. Um, a woman said, “My mom’s faithful. We have a good relationship.” Um, she asked me, she’d heard about Mormon stories and she knew that Mormon stories meant something to me, this poster was saying.

16:48 And after I described the scenario, a little bit later, I got a Venmo and my mom said, “I’m giving my tithing money, my faithful tithing to you to donate to Mormon stories.” So, bad luck. Yes. People with a conscience and morality, are they seeing it? Yes, they absolutely are. So, yeah, they’re not going to win this. They may win the lawsuit, but they’re not going to win how they look. They just look awful doing this. Well, they they’ve already lost, right?

17:21 Because it just looks so poor. It’s a PR move. It’s It is Prop A to get all over again. It is the 2015 um exclusion policy. you know, they’ve already lost. There was a um a research that came out recently and and you talked about it on the newscast, that idea of Yeah. Just just wrong. That there’s 18% of people who who go to church who don’t believe. And so they already believe that the church is, you know, not what it claims to be. Y but they go but they generally go because, you know, it’s good. that keeps families, you know, but then but when you turn those people and they go, even the things that are that my church represents are not good, are not moral, are not right, you just alienate a new group of, you know, people who are already on the on the on the margins and they leave. So you just it’s I can’t see like who is who is minding the store? That research was so shocking. Jeff Strong, everybody look it

18:27 up because they had a graph where they showed what do members care about. These are faithful members and it was different things like helping the poor, having community, being there for people. And then on the same sliding scale, it showed how much the church cared or worked toward those things. And it was it was nothing. People care this much, the church cares that much. Then you went farther down the graph and it showed what does the church care about?

18:50 It was all structure and covenant path and following the rules and paying the tithing. People cared very little about that. But that there’s a huge disparity in what the people want and what the church is giving them. And eventually there’s going to be a tipping point, I think, on that. And this is one of those examples because even the faithful are going, you know, and and I will say this, I’ll say this at this point. I feel like and I’ve seen some posts about this. They’re just a decade and a half too late on Mormon stories. the LDS church is that that is not the thing anymore. Mormon stories is long form deconstructing stories like ours in our 50s in our 60s you know what the hell happened to us that kind of a a deconstruction long form that’s not where it is anymore you know and I’m a podcaster too and you’re on podcast all the time but I think we can say that we are not exactly the IT crowd you know what I mean that is not where that’s not

19:44 where I know but let’s be honest that is not where the damage to the church is coming from oh look I’m getting my stripes that I get in the afternoon when I podcast with you in the window. Um, the damage is coming from Tik Tok. It’s coming from Instagram. It’s coming from younger people who did not have to deconstruct what we did. And they’re just looking at things right now like treatment of people right now in the here and now.

20:07 Things they see that are wrong, justice, you know, that’s the kind of stuff they’re talking about on TikTok. That’s the kind of stuff they’re talking about on Instagram. The long form is there. It’ll always be there. that there’s no point for the church to go after that anymore. That is not hurting them at all. It’s this other stuff. But they can’t do anything about that. So, they’re going to reach out in and they’re going to attack the old guard, right? The OG. And they’re just too late. They’re too late on this one.

20:35 Well, and and this plays to ego, right? Who’s at the top? And what are the things that are pushing their buttons, which we’ve seen with Nelson, you know, he had a whole vendetta from, you know, 20 20 years 25 years ago with President Hinckley over the word Mormon and he was willing to exercise that even though the conversation had long since moved up moved past it. So that’s one of the real big blind spots and one of the travesties of a gerryatric leadership.

21:09 Um and and something that Greg Prince talks a lot about, you know, that that that these people have are a generation out of the loop. And so the things that they’re caring about are not, you know, are just such a mismatch from what current members, particularly younger members, the next generation are concerned about. And that is, you know, it’s, you know, just handicapping the church. Yep.

21:40 Okay. Let me let me talk through my thing and I’ll try. Let’s get to it. Let’s get to it. There’s just so much. It’s just so involved with everything going on right now. It’s such an interesting I’ve got um I put on a plaid uh uh shirt to um channel my inner uh cogi reddish perfect as a lawyer talking about this because we’re going to talk first about legality and then I’m going to talk about the ecclesiastical part because I think these two bits are really are interesting to to dissect and then we can talk about how that might be happening in the church today with Elder Oaks and so with Mormon stories. So, three years ago, your book and tell us what happens. You’re just sort [laughter] of working on it and letting people know that you’re writing a book, you know, and everybody’s really excited for you. You’re kind of starting to put the information out there that this will be forthcoming.

22:29 That’s right. So, this this goes back to May of um 2023. So, that’s that’s you know, three years ago. And um you know I’m using my personal Facebook page to kind of throw out ideas and get feedback because I have a lot of friends across the spectrum of Mormonism. Um those who have never been Mormon, those who are are are zealots and everything in between. So um so I’m getting a lot of feedback and one of the things I posted because I was you know was things about my book but I also then posted I’ll show you this because it’s in there a um a mock idea of the the um what my book cover and you know kind of blurb might be and so this is what I put up on my face my personal Facebook page right this wasn’t even um this wasn’t out in the public arena you’re just kind of you’re just brainstorming Right. And for those that are listening and not watching, his idea for the cover of his book is the color of the Book of Mormon, the type font of

23:32 the Book of Mormon, you know, so it looks very much like a like, you know, it’s a shout out to the Book of Mormon. So, and so you post this on Facebook as an idea. Hey guys, what about this? What about this? And um and the and the and the book title at the time was 19th century evidences and development of the Book of Mormon at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. So that was the book title. Um, and I I arranged it with the Book of Mormon being more prominent than the rest on the blue, you know, like it it’s [laughter] it’s just an idea. I it it, as we talked about before, I was optimistic that this would, you know, be out in the next, you know, little while. And um, of course, it took another two years to to actually get out. So that’s my naivity, but also um, you know, I’m trying to have fun with it.

24:21 I’m trying to, you know, elicit responses and and also help um manage some of the trickinesses with my family and friends as they engage with us. Anyway, someone took it. One of my friends took exception to this. I don’t know who it was, but they sent this to the area office. Oh my god. New Can I put that in quotes? Somebody that would do that and rat you out to the area rep. Oh my gosh, [laughter and gasps] please.

24:53 To be fair, they did me a great favor, but at the time it felt incredibly personal, of course, and um and undermining. Of course, they didn’t tell me who they were or of course not. Yes, they operated in secrecy and the church area office engaged a trademark lawyer in New Zealand um to to address this concern. Um, yeah, of course outside the US and probably outside Utah, you know, the the church engages lawyers for from, you know, the the nearby lead, you know, place. And so the the church office um employed AJ Park, which is a trademark and copyright lawyer in Oakland. Um, and they sent me this letter, which is a cease and desist letter about my unauthorized use of the Mormon trademarks. Um, so this sounds very familiar. Uh, which which I haven’t done anything at this point. The book wasn’t out or anything. Somebody got the wrong end of the stick, of course. And, um, so they’re pursuing this and a and you know, for those who are listening, basically it’s it basically it’s an urgent cease and desist letter. They

26:04 believe that I had published or was imminently publishing this book. And so they they wanted to let me know that the the trademark the blue of the Book of Mormon and the the the font type and the words the Book of Mormon were a trademark by the church and therefore I would I couldn’t use it and I would I have to um yeah basically I think we should I think we should read through the letter but I’m noticing on the second line there. They’re already telling a lie. Currently, the church has more than 17 million members worldwide.

26:37 [laughter] Yeah, that’s not accurate. Yeah, this um this law firm must have gone to the Wikipedia page uh you know, didn’t actually get some stats from the church because of course the church doesn’t publish that. Doesn’t not transparent about their things. But yeah, well, why don’t you read it for us, Rebecca? That way. It says, “We act on behalf of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” The church in bold, owner of the Book of Mormon trademarks. The church was founded in the United States in 1830 and currently has over, let’s just say it, 4.5 million around 4.5 million members [laughter] worldwide. There are a variety of nonprofit entities under the common control of the church, including but not limited to, and then it lists some of the other things that they’re known by.

27:22 And then it goes and launches into just what are its rights as far as its intellectual property. This is so similar to the kind of stuff that they’re saying to John Delin and his team, right? That they own the color and the font and the placement and the treatment. This is so interesting. Scroll up a little bit so I can see the concerns here. Boy, how did you feel when you first got this letter? Were you shaking in your shoes? I would be or were you just like, “Wait, there’s there’s a mistake here because you haven’t published anything. You just put out a picture of what you you know your wish list, right? Maybe I’ll make a book that looks like this.

27:57 Well, I I was annoyed. Absolutely. Plus, too, I know people in the area office, so I don’t know why they didn’t just pick up the phone and have a conversation with me. That’s the thing. That’ll never happen. Why send this letter? Yep. It says, “It has recently come to the church’s attention that you have written a book entitled The Book of Mormon.” [laughter] You mean translated? You had your sear stone. Your Sears stone. You translated it.

28:20 That’s right. The church understands that you intend to publish and distribute this book through Amazon. It also understands the book is due for release late May 2023. So, they believed you and your uh sort of pipe dream of getting it out early. And then they include the image there just so that you can make sure that you understand what they’re talking about. Look at that. Um and then uh and basically they you know and you can read through this um as people stop the the um the slideshow but you know basically say I’m not authorized to use um the wording the Book of Mormon or similar for a title of my book um and that my that the idea that I have Book of Mormon in my title is infringes the the church’s trademark.

29:09 So uh it it also um and then it demands a few things. One that you know I’m going to confirm in writing that I’ve stopped publication that I’ve recalled any any um any uh uh copies that um that and and give them an accounting of that because I’ve infringed their rights. Um, and what’s also really interesting is they re they include a schedule of all the copyrights that the church has in New Zealand, of course, because I’m in New Zealand, uh, with regard to the Book of Mormon.

29:44 Different jurisdictions across the world will have different things that you can trademark and for what but the Book of Mormon the name or the words the Book of Mormon um they’ve trademarked on the basis of any scientific nautical you know video cassette tapes compact discs education religious ethics you know so they’ve really tried to um suggest that any mention of the word the Book of Mormon in any context um uh would infringe would constitute a trademark and a violation if it looks it says music and dance. So did they send this letter to Book of Mormon the musical. I mean that’s flat your book was not called the Book of [clears throat] Mormon. It was a book talking about the Book of Mormon.

30:32 There’s a big difference there. But the Book of Mormon, the musical actually says Book of Mormon and it is singing and dancing and perhaps a little nautical because they do uh cross the ocean. This is just wow. This is everywhere. Marital relations. Okay. Museums. Yeah. You guys are probably going to want to pause on this and just read all of this. This is crazy. And this is kind of just like their form thing that they send out, I think.

30:57 Yeah. And and look, they um basically say, “We own this. you your your use of it in any way, shape, or for form is is something that we’re concerned about. Medical care. I’m just reading this and trying to understand food and drink. Food and the what? The Book of Mormon method. I Yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s very comprehensive and obviously they’ve they’ve um they’ve tried to copyright or trademark this. This must have been quite expensive to do at the time. this go. It says that it was done on in 2001. So there was a point of time where the church was um pursuing the idea of Mormon and the Book of Mormon as a trademark area and they they tried to register it for everything. So look, it says worldwide web. This is great. Some of these words in here are so well so two decades ago, right?

31:54 [laughter] Wow. They’ve got it locked down. they have it locked out. Um, so basically, yeah, that was it was scary. I, you know, I understood the church had millions of dollars. They could they could make my life miserable. Um, you know, so that it it was a problem. I engaged a friend who’s a lawyer. And he um he wrote a letter back. So you can see it’s quite quite quickly in in this crowd at the beginning of June. This just for timeline sake, this went on for 3 months.

32:26 Oh my god. you know, basically June, July and August before this was resolved. So, it was um and yeah, as the process went on, I got more confident that that I was, you know, not in a bad situation. But, but certainly at the beginning, it felt very uh punishing, very, you know, personal, very pointed. And so, that that fills you with a lot of dread and a few sleepless nights, of course. Um and and I knew that the church could make my life miserable. So that’s that’s just really interesting. So anyway, my lawyer, my friend who who looked at this and New Zealand’s a small place. So all of these lawyers are interconnected and I used to work for a law firm which is um and I’ve got a um a degree in commercial law. Uh I don’t practice in law but um you know I understand some of the basis. You do have a degree in commercial law. Yeah. Yeah, I have.

33:25 Ganesh just like throws these things out here like just when we think [laughter] we’ve got him figured out, he’s like, “Oh, yeah.” You know, I’m a a Navy pilot. Oh, I have a degree at Gosh, Ganesh. So, I have I have a degree in psychology. I have a degree in um in accounting and a degree in commercial law. You have three degrees of glory. That’s awesome. Yeah. Three degrees. Um but I also started my um undergraduate in physics and um advanced calculus. So um but there but I was young and um you know hyd weren’t very many girls in um in uh physics or or calculus at the time.

34:05 So I swapped to psychology which was a lot more. Now we see your motivations. Now we understand what drives you. We get it. We get it. Oh my gosh. My wife actually did a degree in psychology at BYU Provo. So, so yeah, so eventually it worked out that very talks. There you go. Um, so my my lawyer wrote back on my behalf uh basically saying, you know, look, a book title is not a trademark use. Um, the intended title is 19th century evidences and development of the Book of Mormon, the Church of Jesus Christ Latterday Saints.

34:42 So it’s not just the Book of Mormon. Um and and also and and this is important, right? Um he wrote, “Ganesh is an active member of the church and indeed a former bishop of the Wellington area. He does not wish to cause unnecessarily um concern to the church, which is true. I am an active member. I mean, I’m I’m in that 18% that strong um statistics suggest, you know, I attend church. I don’t believe in the truth claims of the church, but I am committed to the community. That is my my culture. So, um but yeah, like all of these people I know and I know well um you know, so even the even some of the people in the legal dwell uh and and he basically said, “Look, the book’s not been published. The cover has not been finalized. Gesh will you know is willing to work um to revise this and um and there’s no reason to take any legal action. This is this is dumb basically. Um, to be fair, I also um at the time, this was three years ago, I

35:51 sent this to um RFM and Nemo the Mormon um about the the cease and desist letter and and they advised me and and I thought it was good advice. You know, look, you don’t want to have a fight with these people. Change whatever you have to. It’s just a book cover. Don’t, you know, Yeah. and and and and while I my I was up in arms at this and annoyed, um that was wisdom and something worthwhile doing. So that’s what happened. We we changed the cover.

36:25 Like I say, I’m I’m skipping through a lot of this because this happens over three months, but just to give you an idea of what that ends up, um this is what we go back to the church with. And basically it’s still the same. I’ve changed the the I’ve inversed the color from that royal blue and funny enough the royal blue inverse is is gold. So um that’s quite nice. Um, and then I’ve not emphasized the Book of Mormon part of the title and I’ve shown it as 19th century evidence and development of the Book of Mormon in the Church of Jesus Christ Latterday Saints and um renamed it a topical biography of Joseph Smith and then um yeah, so we sent this back. We said these are the the things that we are willing to change. Um, we also noted and I we sent them there were lots of books on Amazon with the Book of Mormon in their title sometimes really um pronounced. So it wasn’t as if the church and this is the same argument that that we’re seeing at the moment.

37:36 The church wasn’t pursuing any of those selective. Yeah. was very selective. You know, saw mine as threat because of its content where um others it was obviously not concerned at all that they were using the same thing and and perhaps I can show that. So, they did have a sense. I mean, it’s a topical biography. It’s an excellent book, but they thought that you might be a little more hard-hitting on your view of Joseph Smith. How did they even know you or what your view might be or consider you not so firmly in the faithful camp that they were already concerned?

38:15 It probably was the same friend who who sent this to the the area office, I’m sure. Um, and look that I’ve got the blurb on the back. Um, and basically, you know, you can read that and it’s the same blur. So, here’s a copy of the of the book now and this is what we changed it to. So, so eventually actually re the idea was a biography of Joseph was was actually a better idea than the 19th century evidences and development of the book of Mormon the church Jesus Christ. So um it became Joseph Smith the architect of Mormonism um as a topical biography but um and you can see I retained the gold because I actually like the gold is great.

38:56 Yeah, it’s a very provocative cover. I I love it. It’s I have the book in the other room otherwise I’d hold it up. I was reading it the other day. And then you can see the blurb on the back and actually it’s the same. It’s pretty much exactly the same as the blurb that’s here. And um and it it it basically says most people members of the third the faith included understand the Book of Mormon and the Church of Jesus Christ Latterday Saints as one and the same. They seem inseparable. But when you examine the Book of Mormon as a 1829 literary text and compare it to the church as it played out and developed by 1844, you find two vastly different worldviews.

39:31 This can be explained and documented by looking closely at Joseph Smith himself. The Book of Mormon reflects Joseph’s life, worldview, and concerns up until 1829. And then the church he founded shortly after in 1830 tried desperately to implement the ideas of the Book of Mormon in the real world. What resulted was a messy dance of trial and error, which led to Joseph’s premature death in 1844, and the unique beliefs and practices that make up the church today, what has become a worldwide religion.

40:00 Understanding Mormonism is to understand the life of Joseph Smith. His his impoverished refugee upbringing, his desire for a better life, his his creativity to articulate a different v vision that captured the hearts and minds of millions of diverse people. The haphazard implementation of those ideals, conflicts which led to adaptation and also that which also ended his life. Joseph Smith’s genius is more fascinating, wonderful, and detailed than anyone could have imagined. Well, that sounds incredibly positive right there. And seriously, if there’s anybody out there, I’m sure there’s not, that has not already purchased this book. It’s amazing because as Ganesha says, it’s a topical biography. You don’t have to read it all the way through. You can thumb through the index and go, I am interested in this aspect of Joseph Smith. And it’s, you know, you can just go through, pick and choose, study in your own way, at your own pace. It’s an amazing book. It really is.

40:55 I think so. But um you know obviously the church didn’t uh share my passion for no for they didn’t share my passion for Joseph Smith. Rebecca what you know what what are they trying Yeah. Well the problem is you say he’s a genius but you don’t think it was divine right? We all look at him as a man and we’re kind of like aruck by oh my gosh how did he do this? You know but they of course want us to think it was divine and you know we don’t have that narrative. So yeah, and that’s and that’s tricky. And so in terms of this legal legality, um you know, we sent that back to them.

41:34 They agreed that that was okay or at least they weren’t going to u go any further. See if I can bring this up. So um this was the letter that I eventually got back. Um so this is now the end of August. Um and uh you know that effectively they said um the church will accept the recent changes made by Mr. Churrion to the external book cover provided Mr. Cherion first signs and continually complies with certain undertakings. To this end please find attached a proposed deed of understanding for Mr. Cherion to duly execute um which we’ll just look at in a minute.

42:14 But I I wanted to highlight this one part of it. Please note that the proposed undertakings predominantly relate to book covers. The church reserves all rights including as to the content of the book that Mr. Cherion produces at any time and that you know basically they can go after me for the content that they want to even and that’s kind of what they said to John that that’s the thing they kind of held his feet to the fire for anything he would ever do in the future. How can you sign something like that?

42:40 You can no lawyer would advise you to sign something like that. It basically ends you. Oh my goodness. Look at this. This is what they wanted you to sign. Yeah. So, this is the very same thing they gave to John. It sounds very similar. Yeah. It’ll probably have a few more clauses in it, but it probably similar um you know, and and it’s a real acknowledgement that the church is um in charge, that it holds the trademark and we’re only, you know, we only exist at the the mere whim of the church really.

43:14 So that’s that’s um so here are the undertakings. I kind of highlighted and blew some of the things that they wanted me to sign. I I should state the opposite. I as John did too, right? Just said this is ridiculous. This looks so similar. I will not sign this. I feel like I’ve done everything you’ve asked me to do. Um I’m not I’m not going to entertain this any further. you um my my lawyer sent a much more al you know articulate response that wasn’t didn’t sound frustrated um but basically said I’m not going to sign this you I I feel like it’s done and dusted I mean and the church decided at that point in my case that they weren’t going to pursue it any further um but uh you know obvious look at this you can’t you can’t ever use the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in a title. What if you wanted to write a book that said the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in New Zealand, a topical history, right? You could not do that. You would have to check with them. They would have control over that. And that’s kind of the same things they’re saying to John with the

44:24 word Mormon. He can never start another podcast with the word Mormon in it. He can, you know, that kind of stuff. And and these phrases without limitation. I mean, wow. Yeah. and and basically it just says I can’t do anything in the future without checking with it with the church first. Yeah. Um you know that’s a huge breach of anybody’s um privacy or their you know their voice really and they’re and they’re just trying to lock it down. So um yeah and also look the one of the clauses under date to never seek to challenge any of the trademarks or you know once I’d signed this piece of paper that I wasn’t allowed to then you know come back later and say this was under juress or that was unacceptable you know rolled over. So you you’re basically signing away any future you know yeah ideas or thoughts on the matter. I mean, it’s it’s it’s designed to be um restrictive and punitive and and also to scare you into the idea of that, you know, if you talk about this, you will

45:31 be you the church can come after you and will come after you, right? and and and I suppose a lot of non-disclosure agreements that the church does with people particularly over any lawsuits that there will be these clauses in them because they never want the situation where um you know somebody ch changes their mind later or feels agrieved at the at the agreement and um goes public with it.

46:01 understand the mech mechanism. It’s just it’s very um overhanded. Yeah. And it’s not a church. A church doesn’t do that. It’s not a church. And I think a lot of us ask, I wonder if there’d ever be a general authority or somebody that would step away and reveal some secrets. You know, Humula came to mind. No, they all signed this and more. Can you imagine how locked down I can only imagine that what they have to sign is? And and it’s tied to money. is tied to a golden parachute. Nobody’s going to say a word. Not a word. And I know that about lawsuit victims, too, because I’ve talked to some um if they receive a settlement, boy, they’re locked down.

46:42 They can’t ever, you know, like CSA, that kind of thing, those survivors, they can’t they cannot speak. They are locked down. Yeah. Which is, you know, which rightly so. um and in and in John’s situation which you can see kind of the same kinds of things the church is pushing pushing pushing pushing and um to maybe to a point of seeing how far they can get away with things even even if once they’ve gone past the legalities of it because of course [clears throat] anything that they can get you to do they’d like to and and you know they they are a thousand pound gorilla they they can squash you I’m an ant they can make my life miserable so um you know they really play on that and and you feel it as a person who you know is being what you feel like is targeted by the church. I mean from the you know from this particular law firm’s point of view that you know they’re just acting under instructions by the church you

47:40 know they have no you know emotional attachment to these these outcomes but of course the person who’s being you know targeted that feels very personal. It’s funny. We’re all We’re all raised in that high demand, high control environment that you don’t really realize until maybe you step away on the other side. But this is legally trying to enforce a high control, high demand kind of environment, you know, and when you see it written out like that, um, yeah, it’s very triggering, I think.

48:10 Yeah. And and look, I thoroughly support John and his, you know, his walking away from negotiations that obviously were intended to um be punitive. Yes. Maybe even in his case, push him to a lawsuit because um you know, push push push push push, you know, so that it looks like he’s the person at fault. He’s the person who’s angry. He’s the person who’s not looking. And that’s the narrative. That’s the narrative on the faithful side. Well, he walked away. Well, he wouldn’t do it.

48:43 Well, you know, as I understand it, you know, he asked, “Can I just see the list of things you want me to do and I’ll work on changing it?” No, you can’t see it. We have to go to mediation, right? So, now they’ve set up this scenario where they can do that. They can wave a lawsuit in his face, not let him see it, that he can acquies to certain demands, adding disclaimers to, you know, his website and everywhere. But when it just gets more and more ridiculous, the land of Bizarro, right, you have to stop your podcast every 15 minutes and say, “And everybody folks, we’re not associated with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” When you have to start your podcast, hi everybody, welcome to Mormonish. We are not associated with the Do you know what I mean? When you just do that and you have to sign away your rights to ever use the word Mormon again, you have to change your logo to ex Mormon stories, which I’m sorry, this is a huge soapbox for me. Now I’m taking over the show. I bet

49:38 I bet Ganesh wishes we I was back in Rome or I couldn’t speak because of my time lag. It’s not ex Mormon stories. We told our Mormon stories and for a lot of us it became a story where we walked away and then perhaps were called the next Mormon. But it was our Mormon story and it continues to be our Mormon story. And if they knew anything about his audience, there are faithful Mormons, there are nuance Mormons, there are Bickortonite Mormons, there are FLDS people that come on, there are ex Mormons, there are never Mormons. It is a wide and rich variety of people that are all sharing how they intersect with Mormonism. Ex Mormon is a small part. So this logo is extremely offensive to try to tell somebody who is creative, who is putting out content, who is providing a service for two decades to a community of people that need to speak, need to heal, need to process. And this is ridiculous. Who would agree to this? Who would agree to changing the whole name of their podcast?

50:39 Sorry, Fox overach throwing down my gauntlet. I’d pick up my mic, but yeah, I don’t really want to. But yeah, when I saw this today, I just Yeah. And maybe you can read you can read what John put out because he’s finally kind of telling people, look, this is this is what they were trying to do, and this is why in good conscience I had to say no. Yeah. Well, this happened to me, too.

50:59 Right. We’ve just gone through it, but um Right. And and I and add adding to you the weight of what you said, Rebecca, I’ve been on Mormon stories twice and I am an active yesing member, right? I’m not a I’m obviously a nuance member. I I don’t believe in the truth claims, but I I’m a Mormon, right? And and Mormon stories is for me, too. You know, I’m not an ex Mormon. Um I I would say more kind of independent Mormon, but they um but I attend church. So the and John has a number of people who uh across the Mormon spectrum.

51:34 Um so it Mormon stories is a descriptor that that works. Um he put out this this just a few hours ago and um I’ll just read through it because you know goes along with what we’ve just been talking about. while asking the mediator to uh while asking the mediator to wave in front of us but not ship us a two to3 million dollar lawsuit fully drafted and ready to be filed basically holding a financial gun to our heads. The LDS church demanded we change our logo logo to this. So they already came up with it.

52:08 Yeah, no joking. They even specified the font size had to be the same for all the words in the logo and what fonts we couldn’t use. This was a big part of what killed our first mediation attempt. Um, and then the church went on to mislead its own members at a public press release that the reason mediation failed was because we wouldn’t adopt a disclaimer, which we did adopt. Perhaps this is an example of what happens when you let lawyers run Christ Church.

52:33 And perhaps this is why sexual predators like Wade Christopherson are rebaptized after abusing children. Their membership records are sanitized. They end up in multiple bishop ricks and eventually abuse more children. We need more school teachers and women in the corner of the 15, not more lawyers. And of course, you and Landon did a a podcast recently on the the the juxosition of, you know, Levvenia um Anderson and Wade Christopherson and there and it just was it was heartbreaking that the kinds of people that they want to keep in the church and the kinds of people that they will excommunicate. Um it it just shows that it’s not really about um you know morality. It’s got a lot more to do with legality and um and hubris. So um yeah.

53:25 Yeah. And I think that’s why this is just shooting the church in the foot because it’s an own goal. You know, they are just presenting themselves in one way and then the evidence is just the opposite. So people just won’t stand for it. They just we love the underdog. We’ve grown up watching all of the the movies. You know, we are the Star Trek and the um Star Wars generation who, you know, who you know, believed that, you know, morality could conquer the universe, that the you know, the the righteous rebellion um it was the the purpose, you know. So, you know.

54:03 Yeah. So, so if anybody and I know a lot of people ask me too, what is it exactly that the church was asking him to do? You know, because they don’t understand the narrative that went out from the church is they simply wouldn’t add disclaimers. And that’s not it. You know, as you just saw, it’s a whole new logo, a whole new name, whole new font, whole new color, disclaimers verbally throughout the show every, you know, 15 minutes or so. It’s just things that no podcast would ever do. And not to mention the idea of taking down all of his videos, right? 20 years worth re-uploading them with these changes. If you understand anything about views and SEO, that kills the kills the channel.

54:46 It’s just over. No podcaster would do that. And no one with any kind of integrity would ask a podcaster to do that when they’re trying to work in good faith. You know, this whole idea of confusion. There’s no confusion. People don’t stumble on Mormon stories, watch eight hours of a podcast, and then go, “What? This isn’t the church?” No. Your members are already looking for answers, and this is a place to go. And John was a faithful Mormon for a long time doing his podcast. In fact, when Landon was first having doubts, his family members said, “Oh, you know, I think there’s this podcast where a guy is trying to help you like stay in the church. Uh, why don’t you look that up and maybe start, you know, watching that?” So he watched a couple episodes and then got to the part where, oh, they excommunicated this guy. I guess there are no answers for those of us that are in the church and we just want to work

55:35 through our doubts. So that has been what John Delin has been doing this whole time. And like I said, they’re too little too late going after him. That that ship has sailed and it’s moved on to Tik Tok and Instagram. This long form, you know, it’s available. It’s here. People need it. But I don’t believe it’s ever going to pull anybody out. They are already having questions. Oh, and and and the church is not requiring this, not requiring this of any other podcast, right? And not yet.

56:06 So yet and certainly not faithful ones. And isn’t that a question? Shouldn’t the faithful also I mean look at thoughtful faith. They have a logo that’s blue and has a temple icon on it. Shouldn’t because those you know while they they share a faithful point of view, they are not the church. And some of them say things that I’m like, that is not exactly what the church says. You’re really spinning that or you’re taking it too far. Shouldn’t they also say we are not the church, but they’re not being asked to?

56:35 And and that was my contention when doing this legality was that, you know, you go on Amazon, and this is a good example. These are all private books that people have published with with the Book of Mormon being incredibly prominent in their title. And they’re blue. A lot of them are blue. You cannot cherry pick like this. It’s such a bad look. So yeah. So yeah, that’s where you kind of you you start to realize that this is targeted because of the content even though it’s been um presented as the trademark and the this kind of idea of brand confusion which comes up in in the letters that I got sent but of course is the talking point around Mormon stories and podcast. Th this is a a way to make the legality punitive. It’s lawfare, right? It’s the idea of using the le legal means because really a church shouldn’t have a brand, you know? Okay. A commercial identity should have a brand, but a church is a community. It’s a religion. Yeah. I mean

57:44 there, you know, I guess you could suggest that the cross is the brand of the of the Christian church, but then we have now changed. We used to have the more Moroni as our kind of brand kind of thing, but we’ve we’ve changed all of our logos over over on Google Maps to crosses. um is that brand confusion because we now you know suggesting that we are Christian like other Protestant Christians and that everyone’s welcome. They even have that cross on the temple which makes me laugh because most people are not welcome in the temple. But I think the word Mormon which for the last since you know 2018 whenever it was that Nelson came out and said that the word Mormon is the disclaimer. Any faithful LDS should know that when they see the word Mormon, they need to cover their eyes and they need to run as fast as they can. Right. Right. They’ve got to get out of there. Piper’s wife, the word Mormon, that is not associated with the

58:49 church. That’s enough. Right. That should tell you. Haven’t you had the experience when you say to talking to some faithful, oh, you know, in the Mormon church, we don’t call ourselves, I mean, they are very clear. So the church is not giving their members enough credit. They know that when you see the word Mormon, you run like hell. It’s a Satan and it is not the LDS church. So I think it’s a moot point.

59:12 And if they’re extra worried, even on top of that, the church should just start saying, you know, maybe Jasmine Rapley in her podcast should say, “I’m not associated with Mormon stories. Now continue with my content.” Maybe they should make sure that their members know that, you know, it has nothing to do with it. It’s just such a comedy of errors, but it’s not funny. You know, it’s not funny because it’s somebody’s livelihood. It’s potentially millions of dollars and mental health. Oh my gosh.

59:39 The stress and anxiety. It’s not funny. Yeah. Oh gosh. It Yeah. It’s such a such a problem. Um, look, we we’ve we’ve talked about the legality and um utilize my u my example at a, you know, at a small level to kind of dissect Mormon stories. We should also talk about the ecclesiastical response. Um and and this kind of highlights the two kind of dichotoies of the church, the legal department, the corporate church, as opposed to okay, what’s happening on the ground on a on any given Sunday at your local ward because that’s where the rubber hits the road for most members of the church. That’s the physical experience of the church.

1:00:27 And of course my book um prompted some uh legal uh trademark discussion but of course it also prompted uh a discussion about you know what does this um does this book mean for faithful members. Um so uh so I thought maybe it’d be fun to go through the email exchange I had with my state president who’s somebody I know well and and would consider a reasonable friend. So um this is not by any means combative. Uh but you know just the the kinds of you know understanding that this means because I want to show go through it but I want to show those two kind of hands of the church and maybe how they work together and also how maybe they work uh quite separately and and maybe in opposition to each other.

1:01:21 So this is my email exchange with my state president. So um so may maybe u you can take the role of the stake president and I’ll take the role of myself. How blasphemous giving a woman the role of a stake president that would never happen. So I think it’s about time. I think it’s about time that we have a woman you know uh you know showing ecclesiastical leadership. So [clears throat] things will go a lot smoother. And you had mentioned to me that you would just kind of run into him like in the foyer, had a little bit of a conversation and then it resulted in this email exchange.

1:01:54 Is that what’s happening? Correct. Okay. And you can see and and you can just for aside you can see from the dates. So the all the dates are on here. Um this is the 21st of June. So this is happening at the same time the legal stuff is happening. So you can imagine imagine how how um uh painful this is at this particular I am so sorry. Did I mean did you talk to people about this back then? I don’t even think we were friends in 2023.

1:02:18 Maybe we weren’t. I don’t know. I hope you had a support system. We hadn’t met at this stage. So, yeah, not yet. So, all right. So, following brief conversation in person at church, you start getting these emails. Ganesh, further uh to our brief conversation a couple months ago. I note that you have since announced online your plans for publishing your book. As you confirmed with me when we chatted, the premise of your book includes the claim that the Book of Mormon is not the result of translation by the gift and power of God from an ancient record.

1:02:45 This claim obviously runs counter to the fundamental belief that has been taught and continues to be taught by the church. H as such, it seems clear that you are intentionally continuing to act in public opposition to the doctrines of the church. Behavior which would likely be classed as apostasy according to the definition given in the church handbook. This means that a membership council will need to be held to consider your standing in the church if you continue to publish views that are in opposition to the doctrine of the church. And just on a side note, that isn’t true because there are lots of faithful people that do not believe the Book of Mormon is what it says it is. And they are allowed to continue in the church. They’re not going to unearth what’s under that stone. Anyway, he goes on to say, “I asked you this when we chatted, but given the gravity of the circumstances, I want to check again. If this current behavior was to put your standing in the

1:03:36 church in jeopardy, would you be willing to stop?“ Right. Not publish your book. Yeah, exactly. Not publish my book. Uh, as with other serious sins, apostasy is something that can be repented of. And a priority for me in my calling is to do whatever I can to assist those who are willing to repent to be able to do so. I would like to be able to work with you to avoid this path if possible. I’m inviting you as a priesthood holder in the church to reconsider your intentions. I would appreciate your response, President So and so. And this is a friend. This is somebody that you like go get a beer with. And yet, look at this letter. That’s what happened to Landon. Uh the bishop that wrote him or whatever was a former friend. Yet when the church says activate, sleeper cell, state president, this is what you become. You you put out stuff like this to somebody that was your friend.

1:04:24 Yeah. And I look, I get it. I was the bishop. So, you know, this is um you know, I and I recognize some of my folly as being a bishop that I um that I my primary responsibility as a leader in the church was to the church, not necessarily to my members or at least, you know, there’s a tricky negotiation there. Um so this is uh what I uh wrote in return this that one and um so this is my attemp attempt to address his so you can see that I I I said it the same day you go [snorts] um dear press I’ve I’ve I’ve taken his name out of it because I don’t think you need to to to do that.

1:05:12 Um so thank you for reaching out to me regarding my plans for publishing a book. I understand that my research could be challenging or unsettling for those who hold strong beliefs in a divine translation of the Book of Mormon. While I do show that the Book of Mormon is not likely to be historical or ancient, this does not mean it is not scripture or inspired. Plenty of books of the Bible are neither historical or anciently written by the authors that they report to be from, and we can still give them reverence. I want to clarify that I’m not intentionally acting in opposition. I treasure my church membership. Disagreement or alternative viewpoints should not automatically be equated with possessy. My intention is to share my perspective and contribute to the ongoing dialogue surrounding religious texts and beliefs of which our church is a part of a wider human discussion. The church I believe is also

1:06:00 very interested in this. They have published all of Joseph Smith’s writings in the Joseph Smith papers project and have made this available for critical research. I have made almost exclusive use of this resource in presenting the ideas in my book. This is part of a wider ongoing effort from the church and multiple LDS scholars to represent intellectual honesty and open discussion and I believe I can contribute to this corpus faithfully. I have been careful to engage with a number of people including faithful academic members to help critically examine my research offer differing opinions and improvements to the language and tone.

1:06:36 One of these pe people is Bishop Paku uh Paky who’s my bishop who has given me a lot of advice and fact check my work including identifying better lines of inquiring and documentation. I am also happy to go through any of my book with you and receive your counsel. Hope that helps. Do you feel like he was instructed by higher up to go after you or was he just kind of going on hearsay from the Facebook post or what somebody else might have you know red flagged you? I mean, why why did he think the book was full of apostasy and all of that? Was he just drawing his own conclusions?

1:07:08 Um, so one of the other members of the state presency is a really good friend of mine and um and but not supportive of the book and I had sent him a number of chapters for his getting his perspective on it and um and so he was uh you know I guess that that was part of the information. funnily enough, that particular member of the state presidency who is a friend of mine, his name is John Turner. Um, [laughter] by a strange quir quirk of coincidence, um, you know, the John, another John Turner, John G. Turner, um, you know, published, of course, his book, which I have right in front of me, um, you know, the the rise and fall of of, um, um, of an American prophet. Um, so anyway, that’s just an aside. So, yes, look, we we are all very close. I’m Facebook friends with these people. I’m publishing things. I’m sending emails back and forth uh with friends and and family both on faithful and critical sites um to get their perspective. And one of them is member of the state presidency. So, and I know all these people very well.

1:08:18 Like this is, you know, these are all, you know, they don’t sound like they’re your friend. They’re putting on their church hat, right? The sleeper cell is activated and they’ve got to, you know, call you to order right there. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Well, I sent this email that night after um I got this email from the state president and um and funny enough, uh he he didn’t reply.

1:08:45 So, um I sent another email a couple of days later. So, I’ll just Oh, because he did not reply to that one, which was very worded and you’re like, uh oh. So, I replied again couple of days later. Um, hi President. I thought it might be useful to include some excerpts of the book so you can have an understanding about what book entails. Um, basically it’s a thematic biography of Joseph Smith. There are over 50 chapters on various topics showing the world he grew up in, his family dynamics, what was written in the Book of Mormon and the early Doctrine Covenants and then usually some pivot point where things change dramatically and what was the case at the end of his life. Tracking this arc over his lifetime gives an incredibly robust understanding of Joseph and the development of the church. I hope that it will give readers an accurate and grounded understanding of Joseph as a prophet and as the church and the church as an entity. Anyway, have a look at this historical overview as it gives a

1:09:41 good understanding of the time period covered. Interested to hear your views and I’ve attached um you know a section of the book basically the the introduction. So um so that’s what I sent a few days later having not heard anything back from my state president. Huh. So I have to say that if the church is going to allow the Joseph Smith papers to be published which they did. I mean they could have stopped it. They didn’t fund it. Gail Miller, you know, the Miller family. Uh, but if they’re going to allow those to be out there, they’ve got to understand that just historians in general are going to go through all of these and they are going to do different treatments. They’re going to look at it in different ways. They’re going to publish. This is going to happen. If they did not want that to happen, they should not have allowed them to be published. It’s going to happen and it’s going to continue to

1:10:28 happen. And that is an incredibly important point which we’re going to address kind of after we’ve gone through this because I think that’s the crux of this whole endeavor and is yeah let’s let’s put a pin in that for just a second while we go through this but that let’s come back and talk about it. No for sure. No I I think it could be really relevant the fact that like you held up John G. Turner’s book that John landed 30 episodes with him on that important book. He is a never Mormon.

1:10:59 He’s a scholar. He’s a historian. That could have been a tipping point where the church said, “Oh, no.” You know, this is out here 30 episodes on the different chapters in the book. You know, this is laying it all out there. But again, Joseph Smith papers, it’s already out there. Yeah. Oh, look. I think we’re gonna He wrote me back. Let’s see what he two weeks later. Why so long?

1:11:21 Says, “Hi, Ganesh. Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. I’m sorry. I’m only now just getting around to responding. Yeah, because it’s not like your eternal salvation, right? It’s nothing important. [laughter] Based on your response, we will need to go ahead and schedule a membership council so that I can consider this matter properly. This is so triggering. I bet this is really triggering to a lot of people that are watching. And I’m sorry if you guys have to go get a latte or something or something stronger, please do because these words, the way they phrase it, this is extremely trick. I don’t even like to be reading these words. Yikes. Can you let me know if you would be available to pretend it’s on either of these two dates, assuming a 7 p.m. start. Tuesday the 1st of August.

1:12:03 Thursday the 3rd of August. Thanks. Right. That’s it. Ah, you said your peace. Doesn’t matter. Not at all. We’re still moving forward. You’re a bad guy. You got to come to the office one of these two days. Y. Wow. Called to the called to the principal’s office. Yeah. And and of course this is on the backs of some changes in the handbook which suggests that the state presidency can alone look at some of these issues. They don’t have to call a whole um you know high council to address these these these things.

1:12:31 Oh no. You don’t want 18 men hearing your very reasonable explanations of why you should be allowed to write your book. Guaranteed statistically two or three of them will go ganesh makes sense. It makes sense. Maybe I’ll watch Mormon stories. So I wrote back that day obviously because you know I it had been a couple of weeks since I’d had this original and well now I’ve got this these dates.

1:12:57 So I said um this is what I responded um taho which in moldi means wait president a few our few words in passing after church does not constitute an understanding of this important matter for either of us. I have offered to meet with you and discuss any concerns. Instead of setting a time for an interview with me, you have by email requested my presence at a membership council. This is contrary to the church handbook of instructions not to me mention dismissive of me personally. I formally request an interview with you, my state president, to determine the valid uh the validity of any apostasy accusation against me. If after that meeting we determine that a council is warranted, I would be happy to attend, we can then meet again to set the terms, requirements, and date of the council as per the handbook.

1:13:50 I value my I value my membership in the church and I hope to move forward in a positive and uplifting way. I would appreciate your immediate respon response. As you can probably imagine, the past few weeks without any word from you has been distressing. Wow. So you just threw that handbook at them. Just meeting you and talking to you for a second is not procedurally what needs to happen before they formally convene that council.

1:14:14 The the handbook clearly states that the that the state president or the leader has to sit down with the person and it also states that the the person can choose if they wish to have a 12 um member uh high council you know discussion. So those are two things that the that the handbook currently says and it might be changed in the future. Um so that a he’s supposed to sit down with me. B I’m I have some choices over what this will look like and um and and neither of those things were being uh put forward. And and look, I know this because I’ve been a bishop, right? And I know that I’ve I’ve been in these membership councils both at a state level and as a bishop level. So, um I’m privy to that procedure, um which lots of other people wouldn’t be privy to because um they have not been in those positions. Um so, yeah, that’s also that makes sense to me now as far as what happened to Landon because you

1:15:19 know, he travels a lot. For a while there in the fall, leadership was trying to like text him or call him. He didn’t really recognize who it was or or why and so, you know, he’s traveling, he just ignores it. They were probably trying to formally, you know, yeah, fill these steps that you have to do, you know, and then sending a registered letter, which Landon didn’t get. He just got a not, you know, they tried and then the final letter said, you know, after repeatedly trying to, you know, and kind of list it off here and this kind of stuff. That makes sense. They’re trying to say, “Look, we tried. We tried to go buy the book. We tried to go through, but instead total strangers need to convene and talk about you and what you think and who you are.” So we went ahead and did it. Yeah.

1:16:02 Yep. Procedures very important procedure and you know that again speaks to the legal legality or at least an ecclesiastical legality and look this is written into the doctrine covenants the idea of a membership council is lit into that and of course the current handbook overwrites some of those procedures that are actually scripture. So this is has its own area of problematic. Oh yeah.

1:16:27 And and it was so important in the DNC because as Landon pointed out in our podcast the other night, he joins the good company of pretty much every apostle and every member of the First Presidency that ever existed with Joseph Smith. Everybody was excommunicated. So again, what church does this, right? What church has these courts and these procedures and these handbooks? What I’ll tell you, not a church does this.

1:16:51 This is not a church. It’s not what do this is a corporation. Yeah, it’s a corporation. Um, all right. So, I did get a um a prompt reply, which was which was good. So, maybe you can read. Let’s see. He says, “Hi, Ganesh.” Like, it’s so casual. All right. Hi. I’m very sorry to hear that my delay in responding has caused you distress. I’m glad that you value your membership in the church and I’m more than happy to meet to discuss that. I can pencil in a time for Sunday the 30th of July straight after Wellington Ward Saccharant meeting uh 12:10 p.m. though there’s a chance I will be out of town on that date. I confirm I can confirm this over the next week whether I will be or not but didn’t want to delay responding. So I offer it as a possible opportunity at the stage. Alternatively, the following Sunday the 6th of August at the same time is also available at this stage. Do you have a preference?

1:17:39 So, I think he’s backpedaling because I think he realizes he way got the cart before the horse. He has to sit down and talk to you probably a couple times before a council would even be part of it. Yep, that’s right. Um, and I of course responded immediately. Um, because I’m going to be out of town. Um, I’m away from the 25th of July to the 7th of August because that was Sunstone. That was Sunstone. Yeah. And that’s when I met you. I think it was. Yeah. Isn’t that funny?

1:18:06 right in the middle of your excommunication drama. Yes. And um at the same time I did my first Mormon stories uh episode with John Dyn. So um that I’ll reference that later. So I so I was away for a couple of weeks. I said I’d meet after that if if possible. Um, and also I I at the time I was looking at donating my kidneys to a family member and um, so I just wanted to suggest to him that I [clears throat] was doing that and right um, that that could be a factor in these kinds of uh, issues. Um, so yeah, that went fairly quickly. Um, so I but I did do a follow-up email um because he wrote back and said, “Oh, that sounds very nice that you’re giving away giving your kidneys. I totally understand. You know, just let let me know when you available.” And so I wrote back to But you’re still an apostate even though you’re considering doing this incredible thing for a friend as a human being.

1:19:09 You’re still an apostate. Ju just be clear. Yes. Yes. So um I wrote back, “Thank you, President. Um can the operation not without its risks or I’m going health ramifications?” You know, these these are tricky for me. Um and and this is what I offered him in regard to the book because I wanted to try and stress how important I thought the work I was doing was and why I thought it was valuable to the church and to him as a state president. Um I said I know that my book has some concerns attached to it but I want to assure you that the that the same principles of kindness and usefulness are employed in writing but as you may well know I experienced an acute faith transition when I understood that the narrative about the events in church history which I had been taught and had talked to others was not accurate and had significant implica implications. I wrote about it publicly in 2014 and gave him gave him the reference. Um this sparked a decadel

1:20:10 long devoted study of church history. I wanted to understand completely why we had presented our history in a particular way and understand what was changing as the internet made made available source documents from the early church for its members and wider society. I was all I was especially interested in a transparent and open understanding of our past that helped us to go forward with kindness and use into the future. I both wanted to help people avoid or lessen the pain that came with a fuller church history telling and maturity and dealing with issues that are very hard. My first attempt at this was an article which took me six months to research and write. I give the reference. In my research, I’ve become very aware that this is a challenging subject. The church is not just a place that people frequent on Sunday. It is often people’s identity, their way of understanding the world, the mechanism by which they make their most important decisions, the basis by which they measure their well-being, the foundation

1:21:05 of the most intimate family relationships. This can be hugely validating when everything works as per general conference narratives, and desperately heartbreaking when it doesn’t. For instance, many of your youth, especially our LGBT plus community, spend years with su suicidal ideiation trying to reconcile their sexual identity with a gospel plan that excludes them. Single members agonize about their lack of partner.

1:21:30 Childless couples cry themselves to sleep. The examples are many, and I’m sure you have heard heard them as I did. I was a bishop. Um, this list was obvious for a little longer, but I’m just I feel like it’s pearls before swine. What you’re saying is so good and so beautifully said, but I feel like, you know, it’s probably not even going to be acknowledged or understood. Uh, yeah, spoiler alert, he does not respond to any of this.

1:21:57 Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. Pearls before swine. Um, is look and and people can read this. I’ll put this up on the screen and then they can they can read them to theirel. But it basically it says I’ve um I’ve been going through this the um the Joseph Smith papers project. I’ve been trying to collate it in ways like you said before Rebecca that would be useful for people to understand so that they can make sense of the information and um and you know and this is this is going to be challenging but it’s already challenging because people are are finding these things and and and not knowing how to process them and that was one of the the um the impetuses for the book and ways in which I hope the book would be received which fortunately since was publishing you know in the middle of last year you know people have shared that that’s what they’ve got from it so that’s um uh so I I I just finish off by saying

1:22:55 anyway I hope this email gives you some greater detail of intent and my in integrity in this matter plus highlight some of the background issues that might be contributing to well you know the distress because you know the church is is pursuing me legally that I’m I’m looking at this kidney donating and That’s tricky on my health and you know and also this ecclesiastical action. So and no respond. He did not respond.

1:23:22 Crickets. How do you not respond to something like that? It’s so heartfelt and it’s so raw and it’s so open and you’re being so truthful. How do you not respond to that? There is no response I guess if you’re following the party line and the truth claims. Yes. So the resp I guess the response did come in the sense that it was completely separate email with a different um uh subject matter which was you know when are we going to meet because there was no response to the to the So he’s still trying to work out the meeting time. We don’t have to read the whole thing. We can just pause if uh people want to read it. But so here’s the question. Did you did you ever meet?

1:24:02 Oh yeah. So um uh so he is he in his letter you know basically he he says you know I can meet this is after we did we do meet um uh I he he and I think this is important maybe you can read it just that that paragraph to to help you understand. Yeah. So you he says it says uh talks about the accommodation of the time and he says to help you understand where I’m coming from. This is the state president. As you know, I have a responsibility in my calling to address issues of apostasy. Again, after that huge heartfelt letter, he’s just calling you an apostate, including members who are active publicly teaching against the doctrines of the church. That’s word for word what it said in Landon’s excommunication letter. And since I’m the only one currently in that position in the stake, it’s not something I can ignore or palm off. When I asked you about your book, etc. Previously, you said you don’t think that what you are

1:24:56 doing should be considered as such. So, I’m interested in talking about this since if you are actively promoting the idea that the Book of Mormon isn’t historical, then I can’t see how it could be anything else. He did not get the memo. Top leaders are saying it’s not a history book. It’s not historical. They’re dialing that way back despite how incredibly problematic that is. That’s really funny that that’s the hill he’s going to die on because a lot of members don’t believe it’s historical.

1:25:20 They believe it’s parable, allegory, good advice, you know, things about tapers. That’s very interesting. He’s not very educated in this, is he? Well, he he just doesn’t want to know because Yeah. He’s the state president and this is his his thing and he and he and and look, he he doesn’t want to well something else happened and I kind of I I allude to it in the this is the last email response. So just so that um but he they they have a state conference and a a area 70 comes the area 70 is somebody I know really well as well and during the state conference they talk about this they don’t um they don’t mention my name publicly but they talk about Book of Mormon its divinity and the idea that anybody who’s says it’s not um historical or agent is is a cory That’s a um wow that’s a quote.

1:26:22 In fact, a couple of the members of of the stake came up to me because I was there like I went to this um they came up to me uh and they said gosh they really came after you over pulpit. So this was you know this was recognized by the members of who knew me and know what my position was. So, this is my empathetic response to his his email and also um you know calling him out a little bit on this this thing.

1:26:55 Again, I’m still trying to educate him that this is a wider problem than just me and him because he I get that. Well, I’ll just read the I have huge empathy for your calling. I’ve been the bishop. I know that the buck stops with those officers. I appreciate that that I have probably caused you some angst with various people contacting you about me and that is never much fun. I’m sorry it rests in your lap and I hope I can alleviate that worry. I know the podcast is long that that I sent him the the link to the Mormon stories podcast that I did with John. Um but I think it would be help it would help immensely if you got to listen. It’s a story of my life and connection to the church. I talk about you and your family in various ways which I think you would find fun and enlightening. I think many of my experience would mirror your own and you would find it uplifting. I also think that it would give you an understanding of that what I am doing is not in any

1:27:48 shape or form apostasy. I love the church and this work is designed to help with what is a crisis for many members. I’m uniquely positioned as well, deeply compassionate, intelligent, articulate, kind. I can talk to challenging issues with grace cont uh context and hope. You will no doubt be aware of a lot of disaection in the church and the distress it causes those who leave and and are als and also those who stay.

1:28:13 This seems to be accelerating. This is a big issue much bigger than me. But I have some understandings that can help reduce that distress and get people talking. My work is primary academic but academics can help. I can be dispassionate enough to present the evidence so that people can see the issues and hopefully have enough context to understand what’s really going on. It doesn’t solve the problem of people leaving, but it can explain some of the issues clearly, provide understanding and and dissipate some of the distress that both levers and remainers feel.

1:28:44 Hopefully, it also provides ways for people to talk about tough issues without being overwhelmed. Understanding the Book of Mormon as non-historical is one of those tough issues, the toughest some might say. Obviously from your talk on Sunday at conference, it’s it’s an issue that you feel resolute about. Have you considered that lots of faithful believing members do not hold that position?

1:29:07 Wow. More are coming to that conclusion and that some are being very public about that. Here’s a short clip, 60 seconds, of Dan Mlen, a recent scripture translation supervisor for the church, active believing member, biblical scholar, speaking last week about the issue. It’s a short clip. Please watch and I’ve transcribed below. And basically, it’s where where Dan Mlen talks about the Book of Mormon being a 19th century work. So, um, of course, yeah, my state president does not address any of these issues. He can’t go there. Yeah.

1:29:44 But um just to to to close out the story um we did meet we sat down. I took a number of piece uh pieces of evidence on my part. One was you know things that that the historian and scholar Richard Bushman said about uh the Book of Mormon. And I showed that this is an example of what you know church faithful church historians are saying. And um the other thing that I um took with me uh which I which was really uh relevant.

1:30:21 I bet that must have been shocking to him. I I feel like he probably just really did not know what was happening in the outside world of the faithful as they pull back on that because it’s indefensible. Yeah. Yeah. And I I he he’s an incredibly intelligent person who actually works in intelligence. So, you know, um ironically um the you know the fact that you can be so removed from it or or maybe just you just don’t want to go there because it’s it’s just tricky, right? Yeah. You can’t you compartmentalize.

1:30:54 You cannot go there. And I sometimes think the more intelligent you are, the more capable you are of not going there and gaslighting yourself and compartmentalizing. You just your brain will not allow you to have that understanding because it unravels everything that your life it’s based on. Oh, and and and his future too. Like I’m sure you know he’s he’s young. He he that he’s he’s being you know framed for you know being a mission president general authority you know this is this is a trajectory church you know pro you know it’s it’s designed to be that way. Um I also brought with me which I think’s worth of um tracing.

1:31:31 This is um a interview or excerpts from an interview from Jeffrey R. Holland um with uh PBS um talking about some of the the issues that the church um might um are currently facing. You know, some of the the current issues and one of them is, you know, what did they do about disaection in the church? and you know Book of Mormon being criticized and you can go and have a look at this. This is um the this this is online the Mormon’s interview PBS and some excerpts and I just wanted to read to you this one area which I which I printed out and and took with me to my state president to to suggest these are issues that the church is aware of and this is how they’re talking about. This is President Holland. Um he says if some if someone can find something in the Book of Mormon anything that they love or respond to or find dear I applaud that and say more power to you that’s what I find too and that should not in any way discount somebody’s liking a passage here or or a passage there or the whole idea of the book but not agreeing to its origin or its divinity.

1:32:44 I think he’s speaking to the interviewer. I think you would be as aware as I am that we have many people who are members of the church who do not have some burning conviction as to the Book of Mormon origins who have some other feelings about it that is just not as committed to foundational statements and the premise premise of Mormonism. But we are not going to invite somebody out of the church over that any more than we would anything else about degrees of belief or steps of hope or steps of conviction. We would say this is the way I see it. This is the faith I have. This is the foundation which I’m going forward. If I can help you work towards that, I’d be glad to. But I don’t love you less. I don’t distance you more. I don’t say you’re unacceptable to me as a person or even as a Latter-day Saint if you can’t make that step or move to the beat of that drum. We really don’t want to smell smoke. We don’t want to seem uncompromising and insensitive.

1:33:40 And it goes on. There are some things we can’t give away. There are some fundamental stones. If you don’t have those, you don’t have anything. So, the first vision, the Book of Mormon, those are the basic things. Wow. What did he say? What did your state say president say to that? Here’s an apostle saying, “You don’t have to believe in it. A lot of people don’t. Find something good out of it, and you’ll work your way through it, and we certainly won’t kick you out.” I mean, right there, he countered everything in all those emails that your state president was trying to tell you.

1:34:06 Yes. And so, my state president said, “Oh, wow. Um, okay.” Because I brought these as pieces of paper to give to him. I I will review these and I will get back to you. And that was two and a half years ago. He never he never responded after that. [laughter] Wow. And is he still in the church? Sometimes that’s all it takes is a little thing like that to send somebody down a rabbit hole.

1:34:36 He’s still in the state presidency. I just saw him the other day and um you know said congratulations to him because he’s recently become a grandfather. But um the yeah he has never addressed this again. He has never called me in. He has never sent an email. He is not um you know he the the um and of course the book was published in June of last year. um in in that respect he did say something about that and and seemed really upset about it but he he um but that uh yeah I’ve not been called back in um I’ve not been asked to present anything else. I’ve not been you know it just effectively ignores me as a as an issue really. But that’s an incredible story. Am I muted?

1:35:26 No. That’s an incredible story because uh you dodged a lawsuit from the church and you dodged excommunication. Most people aren’t that lucky. I mean, maybe it’s a little roulette. Maybe it’s you’re just so personable. You can talk your way out of anything, but it just shows, you know, it’s roulette everywhere you go. It really is. Wow. What a fascinating story. Yeah. I I think [clears throat] that there’s something else going on to and it maybe it speaks to this wider understanding of um Mormon stories and that is that the you know these two parts of the church the ecclesiastical and the corporate side they have slightly different agendas and of course that some and I’m kind of in the middle of those two agendas and so is John Dylan and Mormon stories and that and that those two agendas are this one is that the church and I would say even this was is this is a championing champion championing idea of um

1:36:29 President Oaks and that is look President Oaks is a lawyer. we absolutely know this, you know, this is no secret or anything like this. Um, but he worked very closely with the church’s historians and especially the assistant church historian who is um Rick Tur, you know, everyone’s a lawyer who’s who’s a church historian ever since Arrington. You can’t have these guys that are true to history. You have to have somebody that understands the spin. You have to Exactly. And Rick um Richard Turley is an lawyer, too. Right. So um now Rick Turley along with the church historian at the time and um and Don H Oaks who would have been responsible for you know the history department um looked at how they might do this differently and this is where we come to the church history library, the Joseph Smith papers project and um and publications like saints they very invested in the idea that in order for the church to have legitimacy and credibility in the public

1:37:38 arena, they must be relatively transparent um about that. And and so this book Jose Smith’s papers is a is a a really good reason to do this. And of course they got Richard Bushman to expand his 1984 um Leonard Arrington era um early biography of Joseph and published Roughstone rolling in 2005 and that was right at the beginning of the Joseph Smith papers project. It’s been 20-year project. It it published its last volume in 2005 2025.

1:38:16 So these and and Richard Bush was given access to all of those things so that he could kind of preempt the tough things that the church would admit to, including of course the um yeah, the se the stone. You’ve got one. I’ve got one. I hope everybody knows that if you’re going to be a postmortm podcaster, you have to at all times have a Sears Stone right next to you just in case.

1:38:40 Um Rick Turley wrote the um uh 2015 uh article in the end sign addressing the the the um the the sea stone and and the published photos. Rick Turley took those photos that are in the Joseph Smith papers project and in that particular insight. So this is how this is how close this all is, right? Um pre President Oaks was intimately involved in that process. In fact, Richard Turley and him are incredibly close. Richard Turley wrote President Oaks’s biography. So, this is all with a measure to give the church legitimacy, credibility in the public arena because Oaks is a lawyer. He knows that in order for the church to have legitimacy, it also has to exist in the public forum. Right? So, these are incredible mandates of the church and they have such a double-edged sword.

1:39:38 They know what’s in there. They know what’s in the papers. They know what’s in. They’re about to release the Mlelen, although probably highly curated diaries. They know what’s there. Do they just hope that people aren’t going to look too close? I mean, don’t they realize that scholars outside of the church like, you know, um, uh, Turner are going to look at this and No, they they want them to look at want them to so they can address it or spin it. Or maybe they count on the fact that younger generation Mormons now, they don’t care about any of this. They don’t care at all. It’s Jesus, it’s crosses, it’s worshiping, it’s praising, it’s music. This is why I think we’re going mainstream Christian and away from that.

1:40:18 And I will tell you, it’s interesting because I think the part of church history that they’re comfortable with is also highly curated in Nauvoo. Um I have friends there in tourism and they are turning Nauvoo into a Disneyland like era. They are working with people who work with Disney to turn it into this experience where if you do want to know a little bit about church history, you go there and you have this highly curated experience. I think that works.

1:40:43 I think only those of us that were raised in the Mcconi Scalin Berture Benson era, we’re the only ones that are going to, you know, call them to task on this. The rest don’t care. They’re just praising, worshiping, getting tattoos, having piercings, wearing tank tops, drinking coffee, Mormonism. Praise God. Praise Jesus. You know, they don’t need the history. It’s only a few of us dinosaurs. And I really will say that I’m feeling like that a lot, you know, that we’re we’re calling it out, you know, and who’s it for? I guess other dinosaurs. Yay, go dinosaurs. But it is interesting. It’s a new day. If they can outlive us, if the church can get past this little hump of those of us that are still left from that era, the new generation don’t know about it, don’t care about it. They say, “We that’s not true. What you’re saying is not real.” And they’re just moving forward into the next century with their praising Jesus mainstream Christianity.

1:41:36 I think that I I think that that is absolutely the case and absolutely the hope but it’s not quite the reality right so um so in in my book which um one of the things I put at the beginning of this was a um the mandate from the church history library um and I’ll just uh read it well I’ll I’ll just read an excerpt of it because when the church history library was envisioned and that’s you That’s just on Temple Square there, just off square, right next to the conference center.

1:42:09 The the church history library was the idea that that history would be available to the membership in a really visceral, accessible, transparent way. and that and I’ll read this because it’s um uh it’s a bit longer that this was the the called a recordkeeping um constructing collective memory. This is the LDS newsroom on the 11th of June 2009. Um I’m not going to read the whole thing, but I’ll just say um this is part of their mandate. It is in the interest of the church to play a constructive role in advancing the cathartic powers of honest and accurate history. In doing so, the church strives to be relevant to contemporary audenc audiences that operate under challenging cultural assumptions expectations. A careful yet bold presentation of church history which delves into the contextual subtext and nuances characteristic of serious historical writing has become increasingly important. If a religion can’t explain its history, it can’t explain itself.

1:43:17 Boy, they were idealistic, weren’t they? They were not thinking clearly. I don’t know if they understood the Pandora’s box. I’m sure they could never imagine polygamy deniers. I I mean, I bet they’re just, you know, it sounds like they’re sincere. They really think that. They really believe that. But, you know, the scholarship, the research does not support that view. There’s a lot certainly hasn’t how that hasn’t been the way that it’s played out. Right.

1:43:48 No, in fact, I I was I was going to say I came across the post the other day where a mission president forbade his missionaries from reading saints. Don’t you dare read about our history. Saints published by the church tries to hit some of these things headon. Yes, he was a polygamist. Yes, he was a treasure digger. Yes, there was a sear stone. Heaven forbid the missionaries should read this. And they probably shouldn’t because like I said, they’re moving into the next century with a whole different view of Mormonism. It’s just about feeling good and having friends and loving Jesus. They don’t need to know about all the trials and the treasure digging. So, it’s interesting that they’re trying to I mean, I think Saints was an inoculation attempt after all this research and transparency, but I think it may also be shocking people like Landon sharing his experience of reading Rutstone rolling during his faith crisis or truth seeking. A family member gave it to him, you know, he read

1:44:39 it page after page. It just confirmed everything he’d been told was an anti- Mormon lie. and he finally just closed it and said, “It is isn’t it?” [laughter] You know, pardon my language, but sometimes those books do that to you. You know, those attempts at inoculation. It’s very interesting. I’ve got friends who have left the church over the saints volumes. So, yes, you’re you’re absolutely right. And and look that press release from from um 2009 about the church history library that was commissioned and accepted and um championed by Don Hooks.

1:45:15 Yeah. So so um you know which brings me to the point which you said earlier you know that um they love the fact that John Turner wrote this book. They gave him access to the William Clayton papers. they um they gave him, you know, they were they gave him access to the Joseph Smith papers project so that he could research his book and he could write this and and his this book which came out in June last year um 2005 2025 is, you know, really what the church wanted, the church history library, what Dan H. Oaks wants is that somebody from outside the Mormon sphere, a credible historian with some weight would weigh in on Joseph Smith in a generous way and and and validate the the history. And so this book is wanted and as you rightly pointed out um um my my book obviously not as wanted I I can’t believe they still want it though, having read some of the chapters about sex trafficking and the polygamy.

1:46:26 I mean, John Turner, he just he he spun the history. There it was. This is what happened. And and now Turley is working on a biography of Joseph Smith, too, which I think is to kind of counter your book and that book. I wonder how that is going. It’s Well, his book was commissioned before either of our books were my book came out the same time. Obviously, I’m a good friend with Richard Turley. I’ve stayed in his home. We are close. Um he’s a lovely person and an incredible you know researcher and historian and scholar you know even though he’s also a church lawyer right but that’s that’s a got to do it but and the and the church really wanted the credibility that people like John Turner I mean I’m I’m an ant right I’m you know but but my book says the same kinds of things because we were basing our research we did our books completely independently of each other because I didn’t know John Turner, he didn’t know

1:47:22 me. We’ve since met. We’re we’re good friends. We talk over these issues. Um, and the books are different except for the fact that they draw on the same information which means that they crossorrelate each other in really profound ways. And I think what you said before about Mormon stories highlighting John Turner’s book and going, you know, the church wants a book like this. They just don’t want the content the book, right? They want the That’s what you’re trying to say. Yeah.

1:47:54 I was trying to figure out what you were trying to say. Yeah. They they want to make their sources accessible, but they want it to work out for them. They never imagined polygamy deniers who went Exactly. and went through all the sources, the same ones all of us do. and and it’s a growing movement. There are many in every board. I’m not kidding. I don’t know if people realize and this is why they’re cracking down on them. They are excommunicating them right and left because they arrived at a different conclusion from the transparent sources that are available. So that’s a great way to say it. They want the book. They want the notoriety. They don’t want the content because it is not flattering.

1:48:30 That’s right. And John and and John Dylan going through chapter by chapter John Turner. I mean while really important it well it’s incredibly important it does the exact opposite from what is envisioned in the church history library establishment and these are pet projects of President Oaks. Mhm. So the, you know, this is incredibly embarrassing to him personally that that people like polygamy deniers exist that, you know, um, you know, Mormon stories is highlighting, you know, John Turner’s book. Um, you know, this is this is viscerally, you know, an affront of everything that that that President Oaks hoped would be the case. the idea that that a you know a a new Mormon legitimacy learn you know transparency and writing about things would would validate the church not undermine it.

1:49:28 So, you know, yeah, John’s got a target on his back, I guess, because he’s highlighted story and he’s effective, right? Because he’s just telling people’s stories. Yeah. And of course, that is more effective than the church’s spin is, you know, which, you know, an ant, you know, is directing the the the dialogue rather than the,000 pound gorilla. That’s crazy. So the only mechanism that President Oaks has available to him is this. Well, two mechanisms of course he’s already exercised the first one which was the ecclesiastic one. John was excommunicated yeah 11 years ago. But um now it’s the legal issue but he’s currently you know he’s directed for those who are polygamy deniers to be excommunicated and many of them have been in the last few months. So that’s been a real track. I mean gosh it may it may happen to me too. I don’t know. It hasn’t happened to me.

1:50:27 This podcast might make it happen. Your state president might go, “Oh, yeah. I was supposed to excommunicate his ass. We got to get him out of here.” So, I don’t know. It just when when it all pounds though, it just looks so bad. You know, just one on top of the other on top of the other. And the bigger podcasters like John Delin, that’s going to get national attention. It already is. Where people are saying, you know, church going after this guy. It just it’s such a terrible look. I I don’t know who’s running their PR. What’s up with their in trinian? Doesn’t he understand this?

1:50:59 Well, the problem is too, like I’ve written this book. Um, you know, and and you can’t excommunicate me for a book that the church history library asked to be written, right? Exactly. And all your songs are in there. Yeah. But they have what what they’re sitting on is indefensible. No, exactly. That’s it. What they’re sitting on is indefensible, though. There are so many things that are so problematic. It it’s impossible to defend and with the transparency, people just find out. I mean, think about it. 2009 when they wrote that statement about the church library, um that was before the gospel topic essays. And how many people did that lead out of the church? How many people used those when they came across them and were hauled into their bishop who said, “What kind of anti-ormon material are you reading?” Oh, no, bishop. No, this is put out by the church. Well, who? Where? How did you find this? you know. Yeah. It their own sources. That’s what I use mostly on my podcast. That’s what you use. That’s

1:51:56 what John Delin uses. It’s their own sources. So, I don’t know. I maybe we sound like alarmists like there’s some kind of something, you know, getting momentum, but it kind of feels that way. Yeah. And this is absolutely the highlight of the church’s predicament and and the highlight and the predicament of its top leader, you know, President Oaks, because on the one hand, he’s champion this this transparent history, and on the other hand, he’s trying desperately to preserve a heritage which he feels he needs to defend through ecclesiastical means by excommunication. And those two things highlight everything that we’ve talked about today. the the legal corporate church and the ecclesiastical, you know, moral uh dilemma that is going on in this whole space. And hopefully we’ve done a good job of kind of highlighting these things with as little emotion as possible when we rant a bit.

1:52:58 No, there’s emotion. I was ranting. I was talking over you. I couldn’t help it. But think about what else is out there right now and that is very very elevated CSA cases. Wade Kristofferson, brother of first presidency member D. Todd Kristofferson, he was not excommunicated yet the scholars are excommunicated. He was allowed back in. You know it’s that juxtaposition that just make people say what is happening here? You know where are the priorities? Where is what’s important? Do the right thing. You’re not doing the right thing. you’re getting rid of the wrong people is what they’re trying to say. So, yeah.

1:53:35 Yeah, it’s big. It’s very big and it we’re incredibly important to talk about. So, I’m glad that we’ve had this chance to do it and hopefully it’s fun for the audience. Yeah. I’m glad you shared your story because I I swear and I’ve known you for a while now. I did not know I didn’t know that you went through all that with your book at the same time you were going to donate a kidney. Did you donate the kidney? I mean, as it happened, my doctor wouldn’t let me. I just was on right on that margin of um error and and and my my doc said I I won’t do it. So, it didn’t happen. But it was very Yeah.

1:54:11 It was very emotional. Yeah. No. And isn’t it funny that even knowing that they still hammered at you about that you might be excommunicated at the same time? It’s just oh gosh they just have no well I think it just highlight a really pro you know why excommunicating me would be a problem well one is that you know it would highlight my book which would be crazy it would be an own goal for the church but also um two if I’m the biggest enemy to the church that needs excommunication you know and I’m this kind u charitable you know belovedike person you know like that would be be crazy. Also, people who know [clears throat] me would would feel agrieved on my behalf.

1:54:57 Y and then the other other really big problem is that I attend church. I’m a active member of the church. Um but I’m people know my stance and where I’m at, which means I don’t have calling. I don’t talk at church and they never ask me to do the prayer. All those kinds of things. So even if I did they did excommunicate me, it wouldn’t change my life one iota. Like you know like it it’s In fact, it might, you know, be a strand effect just like the Mormon stories thing is a strien effect for for John Dyn, you know, you just you people go people go, “What? That doesn’t make any sense.

1:55:34 I need to understand it.“ So therefore, they do the research and they go, “Oh, no, my church is not the the bastion of morale of morality or it’s, you know, integrity. Actually, these people are.” So it’s just so problematic. And look, I I actually feel sorry for President Oaks, you know, squeezed between these two ideals. I want to have credibility in the public space. And I want to preserve the history and and momentum and faith of the membership who are willing to support this. And those two things are rubbing up against each other in difficult ways.

1:56:11 Yep. No, I think you’re right. And I think about all my friends, many of them excommunicated, our friends, most of them excommunicated. And they’re they’re now Landon, they’re the best, the brightest, the most intelligent, the most kind. I mean, I’m talking about everybody, you know, John, Bill, Sam, Natasha. I mean it it’s like look at these people who have been removed from this organization mostly for trying to do good or highlight issues you know from the inside and say let’s do something better for the kids for whatever you know they’ve been removed and then you have this position the people that are allowed in over and over you know and atrocities committed. So yeah, no matter how dialed in and locked in you are to the church, eventually that kind of penetrates your brain and you’re like, there’s something wrong here, you know, and all it takes is somebody to go, you know what, I know

1:56:59 Ganesha. He’s an amazing person. Why was he targeted? And then it does, it starts you down that path, you know? It’s all about people. It’s about treatment of people. Forget the history. It’s treatment of people. And that’s what’s important. So anyway, this issue is not over. We just barely scratched the surface, and we’ll air this a week from when we tape it. We’re taping this on the night that we’re putting out Landon’s excommunication episode. I can’t even imagine what’s going to have happened in the week in between. I’m sure everything we talked about will be old news by that point. So, but thank you for coming on and sharing your story uh with better bandwidth here. And I hope that everybody um I don’t know learned something from this discussion because it’s a big broad picture. It really is. We’re not just hammering on these little points. they’re all related and it’s a big picture and it’s a tip of

1:57:46 an iceberg kind of a scenario. So I hope you’ve all been commenting. I’m guessing that you have been. Um so yeah, thank you Ganesha for bringing this on and please everybody like and subscribe to Mormonish podcast and if you’d like to be made aware of when um the new episodes come out, you can hit that notification bell. If you’d like to donate to Mormon Mormonish, you can always find links in the show notes to donor box and we appreciate every single one of you that do. It just means the world to us. So, thank you everybody that does donate and again Ganesha, thank you so much. This has been fantastic and we will see everybody next time on Mormonish if we’re still here, right? And don’t have to add any disclaimers. Oh my goodness. Bye everybody.