Source: How Mormon Church Lawyers Protect Perpetrator: The Chelsea Goodrich Case Channel: Cults to Consciousness Published: December 17, 2023 | Archived: May 24, 2026

Video: How Mormon Church Lawyers Protect Perpetrator: The Chelsea Goodrich Case
Channel: Cults to Consciousness
Published: December 17, 2023
Duration: 1:42:34
Views: 104,508
Category: Education
Video ID: XNEHgeat3iQ

Description

Chelsea Goodrich endured years of CSA from her Mormon Bishop father John Goodrich. Chelsea and her mother Lorraine went to the Mormon/LDS church for help in prosecuting him, but they let her down at every turn, despite making it seem they wouldn’t. What seemed like a good faith payment for Lorraine’s rapidly deteriorating health due to all the stress, ended up being disguised as a gag order given by the LDS church. This is a layered and complicated case that has been frequently misrepresented in the news. Now, Chelsea and Lorraine take back the narrative.

Find the first episode with Chelsea here: https://youtu.be/4Og2KRQpjqU

Catch Chelsea on Mormon Stories here: https://youtu.be/IoTKWw4xsJs?si=wBXwiHdQyi653a7S

Check the pinned comment for the Ap article and podcast

Ex Mormon lawyer, Kolby Reddish, breaks down the case:
https://www.youtube.com/live/NRmOkOMne18?si=d9GOXUalRrZA1yEB

Find Chelsea on Social media IG @resilientwellnessllc https://www.instagram.com/resilientwellnessllc

Our C2C vacation where we can meet you in real life and go on adventures together has 9 spots left! Click here to go to the official booking page https://trovatrip.com/trip/central-america/costa-rica/costa-rica-with-shelise-sola-aug-2024

Chapter Markers: 00:00:00 Intro 00:04:15 What happened at the meeting with Paul? 00:11:44 The empty promises concerning Bishop Miller testifying 00:15:35 Has there been any recent contact with Bishop Miller? 00:17:42 Lorraine is denied character statements by other LDS members 00:25:34 Chelsea asked if she could speak with her bishop for healing trauma 00:27:40 Paul seemingly lied to Chelsea about the Prosecutor not needing Bishop Miller’s testimony 00:31:35 Paul offered them a large sum of money unexpectedly, on behalf of the LDS church 00:42:06 Foul play…the criminal charges were dropped 00:44:49 What were the contents of the contract? 00:47:18 The prosecutor knew he was guilty and dropped charges anyway 00:57:45 TW: R@pe- another survivor of John Goodrich 00:58:45 The Prosecutor made false statements to the media about Lorraine 01:00:52 TW: CSA & r@pe 01:02:54 Mormon prosecutor tries to defend perpetrator when he finds out he’s also mormon 01:07:31 Chelsea’s dad threatens her when he finds out she will testify against him 01:09:47 The Idaho dental association, allowed John to keep his license 01:12:21 Chelsea’s sister LIVED with her dad with a NEW BABY! 01:16:59 How they are both doing now 01:27:05 Have the left the LDS faith? 01:30:08 Their consciousness side of the story 01:35:04 Linda, Listen

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Theme Song Produced and Composed by Christian Guevara

Disclaimer: Thanks for joining us at Cults to Consciousness. This storytelling podcast is meant to be for entertainment purposes only and does not substitute for medical advice. We may discuss triggering topics and we ask that you make your personal mental health a priority. Lastly, the opinions of our guests do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host.

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Transcript — YouTube panel (human-authored)

0:00 before we begin I would also like to add a trigger warning for anyone who is sensitive to certain topics please take care when you’re watching this video pause it take a breath if you need to or we will add time stamps so that you can skip around and skip over the parts that you may not be comfortable hearing or watching Paul is head of risk management of the LDS church Paul ring says Kurt makoni interviewed all of John’s former priesthood leaders to find out if anyone knew about abuse and he says okay i’ got to be careful what I say here but for the most part nobody knew about any abuse of Chelsea you know it either is or it isn’t there’s no such thing as for the most part that means it’s somebody new so who knew he said something about maybe you just don’t trust any man because of what you’ve been through like he did not it was frustrating he emails me one day and says I spoke with the

0:54 assistant prosecutor in Mountain hm she told me that she doesn’t need Bishop Miller to testify that she has enough evidence otherwise and Witnesses other Witnesses and she doesn’t need him to testify yeah and then I emailed the prosecutor and I said this is what Paul ridding told me is that true and she said no um I would never have said that because of course we would want and need the bishop to testify for your case that would help [Music] immensely hey my name is chalice an Sola and this is Colts to Consciousness or we discuss leaving high demand religions or organizations and finding healing and Independence through awareness and true individual sovereignty if you’re only listening and you want to see our faces you can go to our YouTube channel at Colts to Consciousness where you can like And subscribe become an advocate um showing the algorithm that you want to be a part of this Channel and help me raise up survivors and expose Cults and

1:54 all their abuses so today’s guest we just did an episode with her previously it should have been released about a day or so ago she has been servicing in the news right now in the Mormon spaces because currently the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is under Fire because of the way they are mishandling sex abuse cases and we are covering all of it so she has been in all of the circuits we were very happy that she agreed to come on and do not only one episode but two episodes with us today I’ll get into her story in a second but for now thanks so much for joining us Chelsea and her mom Lorraine Goodrich hi chelice and thank you yeah of course thank you so much for being here and in the first episode if you want to go back and watch it for more context feel free but it’s not necessary in order to continue with this one you can go back after but we did Cover pretty extensively Chelsea’s upbringing um the different abuses that she faced by her own father the way that the

2:58 church mishandled it um by not telling her mother about the first time that he confessed to an authority in within the church and this episode we’re going to be focusing on the legal standpoint of how the church really refused to help Chelsea and Lorraine in this case get Justice For What had happened to them so we had just left off what was the title of the guy Paul ridding yeah he was is head of risk management of the LDS Church okay head of risk management which already it’s like oh is this a corporation or a church it’s just really interesting but you had decided through litigation because you were going to court to seek Justice for what your dad had done to you and you realized you know what the bishop has a full confession from my dad so why don’t I get the bishop to testify initially the bishop was on board he said whatever you need until he talked to the official Church lawyers who said no you can’t do

4:03 that and so you’re kind of just like what do we do next so you contact Paul he comes down for this meeting and that’s where we left off so go ahead and fill us in on what happens next yeah absolutely um I contacted Paul because coincidentally or maybe uncoincidentally uh he was my friend’s dad uh my friend who I knew from church in Los Angeles she kept telling me you should talk to my dad he works for the church maybe he can help you I think maybe he helps people in your situation that was her understanding of it and so finally I did reach out to her dad who also happened to be the head of risk management uh Paul ridding so Paul uh flew out here to Haley where we live in Idaho from Salt Lake City and he met with uh my mom and me and Bishop Miller also came to the meeting and Eric Alberti uh you know our friend from church who had been also assigned in church to be our home teacher he came along as well kind of advocating for us

5:15 and he had recently seen the movie Spotlight about the uncovering of child sex abuse in the Catholic church and I think that as we told him our story he kind of started to think hm maybe you guys have a similar situation going on as what was going on in the Catholic church and he wanted to know and get a feel for if Paul ridding was there to really help us or if he’s there to kind of you know just look out for the interest of the church and kind of Maybe cover up things that could look bad for the church kind of a thing so um Eric had like this amazing sort of speech prepared and also questions prepared for Paul wring when we got there and it made for a really interesting and Powerful meeting and I came there because I wanted to ask Paul basically three things um I was definitely not intending or Desiring to sue the church by any means I kind of wanted to clear that up because in the church’s public statement last week they said that I had brought a civil claim against them which wasn’t true and also

6:27 that I could tell my story which I’m glad they said that I’m gonna take that and run with it but uh the understanding really was you know that I could tell my story as it related to John but to my dad but not as it related to the church but the church part of the story is inseparable from the rest of the story you know so I can’t really tell one part without the other kind of a thing so uh yeah I wasn’t coming at all to see the church in fact I had recently spoken with an attorney that he wasn’t officially my attorney yet at that point but I had spoken to him and told him that we were going to talk to Paul reading and he was like oh don’t talk to him don’t talk to him you know you could have a big lawsuit against the church and you could sue them and I was like I don’t want to see the church I want to try to I was still active in the church and faithful and we both were and I think our mindset at

7:23 that point was like well you know we we just want to try to communicate with the church and see if they will help us um kind of fix the damage that’s been done with the way that the church leaders in Mountain Home handled things and so I did ask Paul about that and I asked him you know why was the bishop willing to testify but he’s not now like is there any way that you know he can testify in this criminal trial against my dad about he knows concerning my sexual abuse and I also o told Paul you know in hindsight I wouldn’t tell him anything but no we were trusting him at the time to a great degree and in the beginning I should say we were and I said you know my dad told me that he confessed to the state president while my dad was a bishop about my abuse and you know what more can you find out about that I wanted Paul to I wanted to see if he could find out more information about what that State president knew uh while I was still a child and my siblings were younger siblings were children at home

8:34 because as far as I knew that probably was true from the way that my dad had presented it and you know we never knew and nothing had been done at the time so and then the last thing that I wanted to talk to Paul about was the fact that my sweet mom had recently had a series of mini strokes which was very scary for us and she’d also got gotten a diagnosis around that time of early onset Alzheimer’s disease which doesn’t run in the family but was related to The Strokes it turned out but she was caring for my 84 year- old grandma who was in heart failure while she’s going through all of that her own Health crisis and I was so scared for my mom and grandma and I I was really asking Paul if he could help with like my mom’s Med IAL bills maybe her rent if the church could just take care of my mom and grandma so as far as any kind of financial asking that was really all that it was otherwise it

9:42 was just about can the bishop testify and what did this former Church leader of my dad’s or other church leaders know about the sexual abuse in the past so that’s really what we wanted to know and initially Paul seemed like he was going to try to help us uh he said well you know since your dad told a lot of people about the abuse not just Bishop Miller since he was telling you know a number of you in the family and uh there was another woman that he told about his sexual abuse of me he was like the clergy privilege it might not stand like we might be able to say that the clergy privilege doesn’t even hold anymore because your dad told other people about the abuse as well not just the bishop and I was like oh that’s great and so he kind of made it sound like that legally there was a way for the bishop to to still testify and I remember the bishop speaking up around that time and saying well I don’t want

10:51 to get sued and we repeated that a lot yeah the bishop kept saying that now he was like really scared about that and Paul kind of reached over and touched The Bishop’s arm and he’s like he’s like H it’s okay it’s okay the church could probably you know we can help we could probably help with that so it was almost like he was I felt like trying to get the bishop to stop saying that because it looked so bad especially in contrast to The Bishop’s attitude before had Chang it had changed so much so and The Bishop’s attitude only changed because he spoke with church lawyers because previous he was like anything you need I’m here right yeah yeah he really was yeah he really that’s really how it seemed he seemed on our side in the beginning and he seemed to have the courage to do the right thing and then suddenly that went away after he talked to the church attorneys it seemed like so yeah I think

11:45 we felt hopeful because of Paul ring saying this saying like oh I think that legally maybe the clergy privilege can be waved now because of your dad telling other people things about the abuse and if Bishop Miller gets sued you know it sounded like maybe the church could help with that which I think would be like a noble use of church funds right is like for the occasional Bishop that chooses to violate clergy privilege then the church would step in and right help support that Bishop if he got sued like that sounds that sounds like the right thing to do but that’s not how it ended up playing out which is interesting because on the live that we just did with Colby reddish who is a lawyer in Idaho he had a lot to say about your case and he even text me you know what I’m going to pull it up right now because the whole thing that we were talking about was how yeah the clergy penitent privilege was voided because he talked to so many different people and so he was like I don’t understand who

12:48 would have put this forward as like this is why the bishop can’t testify and so he text me because he actually filed to get the public records and I’m just going to read what he said um receed the public records today too bad we didn’t have them yesterday so this is the day after we filmed there was never a motion or any raising of the privilege by John or his attorneys in the case I’m going to do some additional requests to confirm but it looks like the church lied shocker so right there really wasn’t anything preventing according to this preventing Bishop Miller from testifying in your case wow you know that just just uh yeah Kobe texted something to me earlier as well about that and it’s just fully hitting me right now as we’re talking about it how strange it feels how does that feel for you Mom does it feel a little emotional for you too to think about well it feels to me it feels really I feel sad and I feel angry

13:51 because here we are back embroiled in another battle to try to keep him away from children and in in between time who knows who many how many people have been hurt besides the next victim that came forward it’s it’s hard to understand it’s a strange feeling to realize that you know there was all this evidence including recordings of my dad admitting to a lot then Bishop Miller he actually knew more so much more he said way more than you knew and the prosecutor you know she ended up saying a lot of excuses that didn’t really hold but you know she did say well if the bishop had been able to testify that would have made a big difference and it just feels strange to think of if that Bishop if Bishop had been able to testify like how differently things might have gone I don’t know it’s just strange it feels strange we won’t never know because what we mentioned in the previous episode was that the bishop seemed to have gotten the fullest extent

14:59 of the confession because as you just mentioned he was confessing to things that you hadn’t remembered that nobody knew about and it seemed like that was the full picture and then when he confessed the next step to the stake president who was a friend of his the story drastically changed the stake president was diminishing saying well did he even ejaculate does it even count just completely shutting you down and so yeah what a difference it would have made if we could have gotten the entire story from Bishop Miller have you since tried to contact him or talk to him since all this has come out he hasn’t been willing to communicate with us for for a few years really since we met with Paul remember when just about yeah because I remember sending him a message he was communicating with us quite a bit um and then after we meet him a call I’d send emails or questions and he just stopped yeah responding which was painful because we had felt like he was an ally though when we had the meeting

16:04 with Paul I was really surprised I mean the bishop had been so strong and so honest and I was surprised at how he his memory seemed seemed like he had Alzheimer he couldn’t remember so much and that was that was the worst feeling like you just feel like you’re in a bad dream yeah and you can’t wake up and feel like a betrayal like like we didn’t have many allies and then we would get one we thought and then it would turn out that they weren’t really G to hold strong with that and this is also complete speculation on my part but what I see here is a good man who wanted to do the right thing talk to the official Church attorneys and they’re the ones that put the fear of God in him to to basically turn his back on you which is so upsetting because it seems like he really did want to do the right thing and for those who’ve never been Mormon or in a high control group there really is something to be said about bowing down to the church leaders or to the authority above you and

17:18 really setting aside your own moral compass for whatever the leaders are telling you to do and I think that’s also at play here not to say he’s not accountable for not stepping up because of course there’s some responsibility there but I just want to add context because this is a channel about cults where we talk about the patterns and the manipulation and control that that was hugely at play at least from my perspective did I say that I think that day that we met um one of the requests that I had was my my attorney because my divorce trial was going or not trial but proceedings were going on simultane to the criminal and my attorney had asked he’s not LDS but he thought it would be helpful if one of my former leaders during the divorce trial could take the stand and just testify to my character that I did my role like a typical Mormon wife mom would do nothing horrible nothing fabulous just just

18:22 typical and Chelsea had contacted several of the former priesthood leaders I had from Bishops to state in the stake on Facebook is that right MH yeah yeah on Facebook and they all said no yeah we can’t do that they would say like um I just wrote these messages to these former church leaders that had known my mom for decades and some of them had kids that I’d grown up with that you know they knew me really well and I was like can anyone just write a character witness statement for my mom like I was like you don’t even have to say anything about my dad will you just say that my mom was like a good honest person because my dad is trying to defame her character and I would write to all these men and they would write back things like well they would either ignore me completely or the answers I did get were like only if Salt Lake City tells us it’s okay oh I was like wow you really can’t even write your own I thought you can’t even write your own opinion that this was a good

19:28 woman or speak it unless you’re told by a higher up Authority what to think and say oh my gosh and why was bringing that forward was that was part of what I was asking for Paul in the meeting and Paul had said oh yeah I will give permission from Salt Lake we’ll make sure that you have priesthood leaders to say that you’re a good person and that didn’t I said I don’t want just anybody because since I was not allowed at the excommunication court and it’s gotten back to me that a lot of the Brethren there stated that I should be excommunicated to based on the testimony they heard that night from John my ex-husband I didn’t want them I said well I really want the bishop to testify because I know that he knows the truth and Bishop didn’t say anything in the meeting but when the meeting was over and we walked towards the parking lot he told me he said if my name shows up on a witness list I’m going to have to be watching

20:24 over my shoulder for a bullet from John when I’m out on the golf course or I’m around places and I don’t want that so I think the bishop wasn’t just afraid of a lawsuit I mean I know he wasn’t because he said that to me which I I completely understood I know what it feels like to live like that yeah we’ve we’ve been scared a lot of people I think when they see a certain side of my dad uh can become kind of scared yeah that adds a lot of cont context as well just understanding that he was so afraid of your dad and what your dad might do while simultaneously we spoke about in the previous episode how he is a member of quote high esteem in the the town that you lived in he’s a dentist he was a bishop people really had fond feelings toward him and respected him while also now knowing that the bishop was scared to death of going against him and so that really shows both sides of the coin and yeah I’m sorry that you had to deal with that

21:34 I mean so the end of the meeting with Paul it seemed very positive and you felt like okay the church is taking accountability in some way they’re going to help us maybe this is going to turn out okay and that didn’t really happen that way did it no yes at the end of that first meeting we did feel helpful and I was also telling Paul that you know I was hearing other stories from women in my congregation because we were still going to church then um in the lbs church and I was working with the I’d been assigned to work with the young women like the teenage girls and um there was at least one girl in there that was sharing experiences with me like one girl sadly had been uh sexually abused by her dad as well and that had not been handled well um by a different she had moved here from a different town in Idaho but she was telling me like you know such a familiar sounding story of how that was handled by church leaders and things and family members that were Mormon and so I was telling Paul I was

22:45 like I think that because he was kind of making it sound like when Eric alberty asked him Paul do you think that sexual abuse is a problem in the LDS church and Paul was kind of like Well he kind of just said no he was like you know compared to the Catholic church and boy scouts no compared to what yeah he was like no that’s not how it works either it’s bad or it’s not bad right right and he was like and you know I just think that there’s kind of a problem overall in society of sexual abuse like you can’t completely avoid it and at another point in the meeting he also said that remember he made some comment about well do you expect the church to like stop all sexual abuse or if it’s members do you think the church should be responsible for all abuses yeah he was like should they be responsible membership for all the the sexual abuse that happens and try to stop it and we’re just like no but I feel like if each person will do the right thing in their little circle of

23:47 influence when they know that sexual abuse has happened and to try to support the victim and bring accountability and Justice as is needed regarding the abuser then like if everybody would just do the right thing like in their little Circle of Knowledge and influence then it would make a big difference in the world so that’s more of how I see it but I was asking Paul in that first meeting like is there something the church can do to change the way that they handle these sex abuse cases in the church because it’s seems like our situation maybe isn’t a oneoff I’m starting to realize that talking to other women that have been through similar things and that there’s maybe a bigger issue here and so um that was another thing Paul was kind of like saying oh yeah you know like the church has been trying to make changes and if you want like we’ll include you in in the process of you know trying to make changes to how

24:49 leaders are trained and all this stuff videos and so I felt like helpful about that too I’m like okay yeah like we’re going to change things we’re gonna you know make a big change but so that was a our first meeting the end of our first meeting with him and then some time past months it just seemed as the months went on and there were more issues with the criminal trial being moved back and things that W adding up the criminal trial was moved back and then nothing was progressing with what was happening with the church either he would say something but nothing was changing yeah it’s like Paul would say certain things that were going to happen or he was going to try to make happen and then it just wasn’t really happening there wasn’t really that follow through and if you would ask about being able to speak to the bishop about your own in terms of healing yeah I also my therapist um I had two therapists that were great at

25:46 the time um a man and a woman and they both wrote letters to the church um expressing that from their professional opinion based on my PTSD type symptoms related to the abuse and recurring triggers and flashbacks and Nightmares related to that that they said it would be helpful maybe even crucial to my healing to be able to talk to Bishop Miller and have him share with me the full truth of what he knew to help me fill in the gaps related to my abuse so that my unconscious mind could stop trying to fill in the gaps yeah for me in a way that is not working well yeah but the church declined you know not surprisingly that reest initially Paul said in the meeting that he was going to request into that that gave us hope too in the first meeting Paul did make it sound like maybe that could happen too so we were hopeful for a lot of things after we spoke with him the first time yeah we were hopeful and what is a bishop for if not to speak to his the

26:52 members of the congregation and help them and counsel them I don’t really understand why they’re saying no unless it’s just a legal implication thing but that’s literally the point of the bishop is to talk to them and to open up and to try maybe I don’t know feel supported but they’re just shutting you down at every turn yeah it starts to become that way and even in that first meeting truthfully even though Paul was being nice enough um we started to see that and feel that he was really there kind of as legal representation for Bishop Miller kind of a thing to make sure that Bishop Miller kind of didn’t say too much didn’t say the wrong thing um that kind of thing so that could definitely be felt and then after this meeting there was a point where I was still emailing back in Forth with Paul and he emails me one day and says you know I I spoke with the assistant prosecutor in Mountain Holm who’s handling the criminal case and he said

27:55 she told me that she doesn’t need Bishop to testify that she has you know enough evidence otherwise and Witnesses other Witnesses and she doesn’t need him to testify and this is the new prosecutor right I just want to clarify from the previous episode you had someone who was great and this is now a new person yes that per the first prosecutor didn’t get reelected she’d been in there in that seat for a long time and she didn’t get reelected unfortunately and it got handed to the new Prosecutor’s assistant was also his girlfriend soon to be fiance and wife so there wasn’t like you know really good checks and balances it was there was a lot of conflicts of interest and U my victim’s Advocate was also the assistant Prosecutor’s secretary so that was another conflict of interest yeah and the secretary told me early on that Jessica qan who was the prosecutor didn’t really want to deal with my case that she felt like it had

28:58 been dumped in her lap and she didn’t really want to deal with it and I don’t know why secretary told me that but I think she just was kind of a tell all kind of person book kind of an open B book and I was like oh well that’s not comforting to hear so I don’t think that the case ended up you know honestly in the best of hands the way everything played out however I don’t think it was helpful to hear that Paul ridding is telling me that the prosecutor is telling him she doesn’t need the bishop to testify yeah and then I emailed the prosecutor and I said this is what Paul ridding told me is that true and she said no um I would never have said that because of course we would want and need the bishop to testify for your case that would help immensely and so then I wrote back Paul and I said the prosecutor says she didn’t tell you that she didn’t need the bishop to testify and Paul just wrote back and said oh there must have been some kind of misunderstanding so but it gives you an

29:58 idea of like communication that was going on behind my back related to you know what’s going on with the criminal case and Paul’s Communications with the prosecutor and I still don’t know to this day exactly what was going on there what was being communicated I I don’t really know but even in my divorce the Civil I got a phone call from my boyy attorney one day and he said that he just got off the phone with an attorney or attorneys from the church in Salt Lake and I was really surprised I said oh they called you what did they say he said oh they just called offering to help in any way that I might need them to help and I said you mean they’re going to pay my legal fees he said no no nothing like that I said well what else in my divorce are they helpful for so that was really surprised and unsolicited yeah we were I still don’t know what that was really about yeah we were surprised to hear that church attorneys had also been reaching out to

31:07 my mom’s divorce attorney and kind of trying to get involved there that’s so odd yeah it was odd I thought it was we still don’t really know what that was about uh but uh we had a second meeting with Paul that was over the phone this time and Eric was part of this too it was like a conference call and I think May or something of 2017 we had the first meeting with Paul in March of 2017 just for context and sometime in May he had sent us an email with an offer of a certain amount of money and we were really surprised to see that he was giving this money offer because we never thought that the church were would give us like just a chunk of money we were more thinking like help with to pay certain bills with medal help with rent for my mom and grandma so we were surprised that he’s sort of like giving this offer of money and I wasn’t sure what to think about it so I reached out to an amazing lady attorney that I had

32:11 come to learn about named Gillian deas and she lives in Oregon and she’s been part of cases representing people like in the Boy Scouts against the Mormon Church case and things like that and so she has a lot of familiarity with Church attorneys uh from that side of it and so I reached out to her because I was feeling more trust in someone like her at that point and talking to her and I yeah showed her the offer that the church was making and she said you know this actually from my experience looks like a decent offer from them amount wise and she said I hate to say it but I get calls from women like you almost every week to my legal fir firm that are in similar a similar position as you and even being offered money by the church and things and she said yeah from from what I typically see this is you know kind of a lot uh compared to what they normally offer so if you need the money then maybe you want to think about taking it and at this point there was no

33:21 discussion with the church about like an NDA or anything like that and so uh around the same time we had this phone call meeting with Paul that I mentioned earlier and during that phone call meeting he tells us that Curt and makoni which are like the church’s legal team the LDS Church’s legal team had interviewed all of my dad’s former priesthood leaders to find out who knew about former sexual abuse or that your request had been requested yeah I requested that but I mean of course I was clueless that that time about how all this stuff works and now you know of course I see that it’s like a conflict of interests that it would be Church attorneys that would be calling these former priesthood leaders because naturally I’m sure you know they’re going to tell them uh give them legal counsel that’s going to best benefit right the church and and not the victims so Paul tells us on this um recorded conference call meeting that Eric was and Eric was there

34:25 too yeah he said present at all of the all the meetings and the phone calls and we had no idea until the summer that he had made his own recording never said a word yeah Paul made his own not Paul sorry hopefully I don’t know about maybe Paul did Paul did too um Eric made his own recordings yeah on his laptop always had his laptop there with all this questions that he was typing and yeah but during this phone meeting though Paul ring says curtain mcon interviewed all of John’s former priesthood leaders to find out if anyone knew about abuse and he says for the most part okay i’ got to be careful what I say here but for the most part nobody knew about any abuse of Chelsea for the most part that was the most we were going to get out of Paul I mean I’m surprised he even said that much to tell you the truth I sometimes wonder if that was like some little bit of conscience coming up for him that he’s like oh I I don’t want to just flat out lie about this so I’m just going to

35:27 kind of tell a little bit of the truth and not the whole truth I don’t know but know that’s uh what he said to us so it was pretty clear we’re like okay well you know it either is or it isn’t there’s no such thing as for the most part that means it’s somebody new right so who knew I think by this point in the conversations we were getting pretty frustrated Paul was getting hostile in fact I think in the last meeting or was it on the phone call where he said something about you’re demanding that we take care of your mother for the rest of her life yeah he started using words like like for the rest of my life yeah he started using words like demand and then remember at one point to he said something about maybe you just don’t trust any man because of what you’ve been through like he did not say something like that the bishop was there yeah wasn’t that the first meeting yeah I think and we ended up defending ourselves saying well that’s not true we

36:22 love Eric we’re like yeah we trust Eric because this is about us being manh haters yeah I oh that’s so infuriating that’s so demeaning and patronizing it was frustrating as time went on it started to feel like you know a little tense uh between the conversation us and him and for Eric too he was getting at one point he said to Paul he said it doesn’t really feel like we’re getting anywhere Paul he was like it feels like we’re starting to like going in circles yeah after after a few months uh Eric was seeing that to and saying that to Paul so and Eric is such a a very strong presence he’s very he’s very educated and intelligent and very familiar with contracts and negotiations that’s part of what he does for his living and so he just bullet points like if he was talking to you today he would have already covered all the main points like in 15 minutes or less yeah he’s just so good at that yeah and I think almost a little intimidating in a way because later when everything was

37:31 done and he was driving Paul back to the airport after our final meeting and he told Eric he said none of this would have happened if it wasn’t for you Paul said that to Eric he said that that basically we wouldn’t have been given any money if it wasn’t for Eric’s involvement whatever that means which to me I was like what does that mean for all the women yes have don’t have somebody who is as educated and strong as who don’t have a male Advocate you know it was It was kind of shocking when he Eric told me that Paul had said that to him W so we still don’t know exactly what Paul meant by that or you know if if he was just trying to kind of like flatter Eric or like kind of I don’t know manipulate him a little bit we’re not sure but yeah uh after we had the phone conversation where Paul said for the most part nobody knew uh the next thing we knew we we hadn’t actually accepted the church’s original offer of that

38:35 certain amount but we were planning to and we just got we got busy with stuff going on with the criminal case and all this other stuff Grandma his health was rapidly and so there was a little there was a little delay in there and the next thing we know Paul is like well I’m gonna fly out there again I’m going to meet with you guys again and I’m going to you know bring the offer to you officially so that if you want you can sign it but you can look it over and you can sign it and we’re like oh this is turning very official okay you don’t have to fly in that’s great if that’s what you want to do and so he did fly in to Haley again we met with him with Eric again and this time he had like an official contract written up and and this time he was offering a lot more money it was almost well it was more than triple right it was a lot more and I mean we’re not really at Liberty to say the exact numbers I mean I think

39:31 it’s out it’s probably out there I think it’s written somewhere on our Channel probably on a thumbnail or something it didn’t come from us it’s out there but we’re we tried to be respectful of the non-disclosures while still speaking the truth we’re not going to talk about it because I mean it didn’t get out there even because of us originally so at this point you know we’re just we’re just trying to to be wise but um I think that we were just stunned we were stunned we were like what like where did this come from like we were expecting the original offer yeah yeah we didn’t know there would be contracts or anything we just thought he would have a check go here’s your check and sorry that the bishop couldn’t justify sorry we couldn’t do more but this should help pay for your medical and your some other bills that are uring so we’re like expecting that to happen but uh this time you know it was a contract where certain things were

40:29 expected of us which as you know are out there in the AP article now and some more information on the reveal News podcast that was put out and I think that because of my mom’s difficult situation with her health at that time and my grandma’s health and our finances we were like well you know uh maybe maybe God is blessing us in this way we were really scared I was especially scared because and wants to get that kind of a diagnosis of Alzheimer’s and I was so worried for the ramifications for Chelsea and you don’t know what’s going to happen to your mind yeah we were definitely scared and kind of in a vulnerable position and I think that we also felt like that we had done everything we could to try and get the truth out there about my dad by going to the police and that we had wanted the church to help with uh getting the truth out there as well and they weren’t and we felt like well if they’re not going to do that but they’re just willing to help with the financial part then at least that’s

41:37 something um and yeah so that was actually huge at that point and I still remember thinking that I thought to some degree Paul was still on our side and that if anything came up in the future to do with my dad abusing kids or doing something that the church was going to step in to help more I advocate in some way yeah I still had that delusion in my mind and so anyways we moved forward from that from signing the contract and and we also told Paul that day that he was here in town that the prosecutor had dropped all the criminal charges Chelsea did you already talk about that you probably did um not really no so uh yeah we told Paul that um the prosecutor had dropped the criminal charges and in that last meeting and we were like this is so awful and we were telling him how she was stating that a big part of the reason was Bishop Miller not testifying that that would have really made a difference and also that witnesses that had been our Witnesses

42:41 had been blackmailed and now are coming forward to witness for him yeah like I told you she said she was going to press charges for witness tampering and harassment but instead she just said oh his new Witnesses are really credible we’re going his new Witnesses those were our Witnesses yeah that turned because of and we had evidence I told you about my sister um on our in our first meeting chalise and we had her on um a recorded phone conversation talking about everything I told you that my dad was doing to harass her and tamper with her and shut off her utilities until she changed her witness statement and all of that we had um documented and so I there was a grandma Report with the police documenting all of John’s phone calls trying to get daughter arrested he was telling people in the community in Mountain Hol boasting to people in the community that he was going to get his other daughter

43:38 was going to be arrested and go to prison and I had people reaching out and telling me that and so the prosecutor had all the evidence that she needed from witnesses as well as the the oron police report of him to show witness demanding that they arrest her but but he got away with that too you know he just got away with with everything so we were telling Paul ring about all this in our last meeting and he was like well that’s just wrong we as the church we can maybe reach out to the Mountain Home prosecutor’s office and we can put some pressure and say like you know well you have an obvious confession of the criminal here on recording and you have the witnesses credible statements and and why are you doing this you know I you also mentioned federal charges to do you remember what that yeah yeah there was an email Paul sent me saying someone has advised me that you might be able to bring federal charges upon your dad or whatever so he would like say these things but then

44:42 like I don’t know do nothing to back it up yeah it was just empty words and hope empty hope so yeah uh fast forward before we move on are you able to talk talk about or give us an idea as far as what they made you sign for this money were you aware of what was in the contract did they explain it to you can you talk about that at all I think that’s where we’re really grateful that a lot of that information already got out there um through the AP story through the reveal Story I mean I think that the the most shocking parts of the contract and what they were asking us are already out there in the AP story you know uh where they’re wanting us to basically destroy evidence and a lot of things it seems like a gag order I mean I’m not familiar with legal jargon but it I think most people would probably say that that’s what it looked like yeah that’s and you know we again Chelsea reiterated we didn’t have an attorney concerning the church Paul reading what he was offering he gave each of us a

45:54 copy of the non-disclosure and we just let Eric take one home after the meeting and we were going to take the other and study it because we had a little while before we had to sign it and notorized it and so we entrusted him with the copy because we have a lot of confidence not in him as a legal attorney about uh years of experience with legal contracts yeah we talked to him I talked to Gillian deas again I talked to Paul and I think that I felt like I could still tell my story as far as my dad went but after we signed the contract I think over time I began to really realize that it was going to be pretty much impossible for me to tell my story concerning the abuse from my dad and the abuse that we both received um in the process of the truth of my dad coming forward without being able to also tell the the church part of it tell what had happened with the church part of it that my dad had been a Mormon Bishop that he said that he went to talk to a stake president and confess abuse uh what

47:04 happened you know when everything first came out with Bishop Miller and the way that that was handled and that we were treated in the church and the community because of that and so I think that that combined with what I told you in the first video chal that we learned in the past year that my dad was in fighting to have access to his grandkids and that they already been spending time with them but there had been a court order to try to prevent that the judge looked at I think the only thing she looked at at that point was an email from the prosecutor in Mountain Home that she had sent to us saying that John was a pedophile and that he needed serious treatment was after she dropped the charges yeah the prosecutor she wrote me these emails that proved that showed how guilty that she knew John was and how dangerous she knew he was but she dropped the charges anyway why would she do that then I’m sorry I’m I’m trying to get my brain around this if she clearly saw oh

48:08 this is a dangerous man and then she drops the charges do we know why yeah we still don’t my observation I had never been involved in a legal system I don’t think even for a traffic ticket or anything in court ever and so what I learned in this process I believed in the justice system but I learned in this process that we don’t have a justice system we have a legal system and the legal system tends to revictimized victims which is really unfortunate and there are even laws in place to protect prosecutors to be able to do exactly what this woman did but what I learned is the person with the most money and the best attorneys not a public defender the best money can buy that’s probably who’s going to come out ahead regardless of confessions recordings or evidence they are going to have the means by which to obtain what they want yeah and you know there’s some suspicious things like obviously Paul riding was contacting the

49:18 prosecutor and having conversations with her or at least somebody from curtain mcon yeah the church was and we still don’t know and we’ll never know what those conversations were about and another thing is that she was young like 28 years old and knew in her career and wanted to climb the ladder in her career and she was always telling us that she didn’t really like Mountain Hol she wanted to get out of there and I can tell you that only about a month after she dropped or less the criminal case she started a new job at the Idaho attorney general’s office over in Boise in Boise and a lot of people were surprised by that because she didn’t really have like the resume or experience to have gotten that job and so I don’t know I can’t prove it but I can tell you that my dad’s well-connected criminal defense attorney who’s very well connected in the boisee area would have been in a position to possibly have gotten her that job that’s not to say that we know that but some

50:16 others have suggested it but specul suspicious but at the very least you know at the time that she started that new job and also got married had a wedding and everything was the same time that the criminal trial was scheduled to go to trial the criminal case was scheduled to go to trial so at the very least I would say that that was very like inconvenient for her to have continued with the trial it was more convenient for her timing wise to have just dropped it so yeah um we’ll never know like a lot of I think the full truth of like why she really did that I can tell you that we were just totally stunned at the time that she did that it was just it was like getting hit by a train right it was horrible we had driven almost two hours hour and a half or more she told us that we needed to come for trial prep she and so we came down she said come to Mountain Home for trial prep so we drove but she knew very well that that’s not what we were driving we drove almost two hours

51:20 Mountain Home trial prep that ended up a tough day being just her sitting there saying we’re dropping the charges I’m dropping this case and I was like what why and she would say a reason and I would be like but we have recordings but we have a confession and then she would give another reason and and at one point she actually said to me uh she said I just don’t think that we could prove to a jury especially a jury in Mountain Home that anything that your father did to you was anything other than natural fatherly affection don’t even get me started and when she said that I said Jessica he says on the recordings he’s getting ARS he’s sexually turned on and she pointed over to her secretary and said well John could go over and be getting erections all over and rubbing on her and it’s not illegal I said it would be if she was a minor what I just it didn’t matter what we said we just went around around for hours I said I I pointed out to her I

52:21 was like what about when my dad says on recording that penis was on my bum and down where private parts are and that it freaked him out and the evil spirits were telling him to get in the bed with me and she was like well where did that happen and I said well he’s like referring to what happened in uh the hotel room back East specifically there and she goes well I guess you’re just going to have to go get help from them like I guess you know like saying from the people very slipping yeah I mean honestly she was oh my gosh yeah she’s very rude and I will say the first prosecutor we were working with she was just complete opposite she would never have treated us that way she was very amazing and Colby reddish actually knows her um and they work together and he said he said yeah she’s she’s amazing and and we agree and I don’t know why everything turned out the way that it did and why the case had to be put into

53:16 the hands of someone who was handling it so differently from how the first prosecutor was handling how it should have been handled I don’t know ‘s a lot of things that I will never understand but I’m sure you know everyone feels that way about something in life because it seems like that’s just life sometimes oh my gosh so aggravating everything that you guys had to go through for me one of the most painful things that day when we got there and she told us that she was dropping charges was that she had obtained a recording from John my ex-husband’s criminal defense attorney John had hired a private detective to go to another city Idaho Falls and interview my daughter and son-in-law who were now his Witnesses not ours they’ switch sides and she told us some of the things that they she kept saying she’s such a credible witness she’s so credible and she was telling us some of the things that she said that were so credible like that I had sued her it

54:20 served a lawsuit to her while she was in labor i’ never ever ever done anything like and the list just went on and on and she said she’s just very credible so that along with the bishop not testifying and now your family is testifying against you and we were like to drop the charges we were like how is my sister credible when she wrote one witness statement and audio recordings as well and now she’s writing a completely different witness statement and we have solid proof for you that my dad was harassing her and blackmailing her with crime that she did as a teenager and she’s like well that’s their new star witness and I I remember saying to her well why don’t we just pull a new star witness out of our asses because that’s what we just did I was so I was I was heard that my daughter would take it this far I was angry that the prosecutor who knew absolutely better she knew the truth and we asked if we could have hear the recording so we could defend ourselves and she said I’ll

55:21 send it to you the next day and we could never get it from her you had to get it later Chelsea had to get it later in uh as part of a lawsuit that she brought against her dad as some kind of comp some kind of accountability for what he’ done but otherwise we wouldn’t have heard it when I heard it I was even more shocked than just the stuff that the prosecutor had told us that day yeah yeah it was it was hard for a mom to hear you know another thing that’s suspicious is that my parents divorce case was was scheduled to go to trial just a couple of weeks after Miss qan dropped the criminal case and in that divorce case all of the same evidence and all of the same Witnesses recording and recordings were going to come forward into court in Mountain Home before the same judge that that my criminal case was supposed to go before and that I had testified before in trial in preliminary trial anyways it’s just

56:22 suspicious because you know the judge was going to see all this evidence that Miss qan just ignored out that she threw out not just the judge the whole Community half of the community was Witnesses either on my husband’s side we heard people were open hearing so people were planning to pop popcorn and plant for a couple of days and take it’s a small town it’s pretty big news yeah and so the truth was going to come out and it was also going to make Miss qan look bad for closing the case with Prejudice which right means that it it can’t be reopened uh even if new evidence came forward and we’ve heard since then that that’s very rare in a child sex abuse case that anyone would close it that a prosecutor would close it with prejudice so but that just kind of locks it shut nobody ever gets to look over here again and so the next thing we knew right before my parents divorce was supposed to go into trial three days before trial we get this uh statement that attorney yeah that Miss

57:26 qan had reached out and given my mom’s attorney that was saying that my mom had asked her the prosecutor to fabricate and make up a witness and to do that for the criminal trial which of course never happened makes no sense because we already had good Witnesses and she wasn’t even interviewing the ones that we had like Sher Tanner you know the woman that um oh we haven’t even talked about that the woman that my dad drug raped in boisee uh after that woman Saw My Story come out in the news she had recently had an experience where my dad had drugged her and had sex with her uncons like what was she was not conscious on this drug and she was debating if she should go to the police and report it or not but when she saw my story come out she was like o this man is dangerous I definitely need to go and tell my story too about him to the police and so she went to the police and that’s a whole another story h of itself I I’ll I’ll just I’ll just go off on that Witnesses later and she

58:29 had recordings that she had made of John confessing to abusing Chelsea yeah years she had recorded phone conversations that she had with my dad would never talk to her where my dad admitted to drug raping her and he also told her more things about my sexual abuse like that he had had erections on and around me all the time and all this stuff uh he told Sherry so anyways um we can wrap up that part of it but basically you know because the prosecutor made this false statement against my mom um that caused my mom’s divorce attorney to Give Her counsel to just settle out of court because it was looking too complicated so that’s what they did but you know that prevented the truth from coming out in court again which protected which protected the uh Prosecutor’s image right so um and then she came out in the media oh yeah then she and said that I had asked her to lie she so that if I did come forward No One’s Gonna believe me now why would a prosecutor lie yep that prosecutor made public statements

59:32 about both of us that were fs and the Mountain Home news was using my name right and left and I contacted them and was like uh I don’t think you’re supposed to be printing my name as a victim and gilean Damas contacted snap which stands for survivors network of people abused by priests and the snap network was mortified and they wrote to the Mountain Home news and they were like you know as a victim’s advocacy organization we’re just horrified that you’re just printing this woman’s name in the paper without like her permission because she’s a victim and the Mountain Home news was just flippant uh later the Idaho Statesman paper that’s a whole another story but they printed that was bad yeah they printed basically that John had been excommunicated for having bad thoughts I didn’t bother to mention that there were even recordings of they didn’t mention recordings given to them they said he’d been excommunicated for bad thoughts which I was thinking you know anyone who’s Mormon knows better

1:00:31 than that that that wouldn’t be a thing and they interviewed her sister my other daughter who told them that she kept Chelsea kept changing her story so they printed that yeah they made me look like a liar and they ended off quoting me Miss quoting me out of context by saying something to the effect of like you know that I was just kind of doing this all so I could sue my dad for money kind of thing anyways the the media has been terrible and the ap of course did a way better job um they still watered down my abuse to the point that that was a little triggering the way that they printed some things like saying that my dad came and apologized to me for getting aroused in the pool I was like no a nine-year-old girl he didn’t use that word but if they were going to use a word describing what happened that didn’t even get used in the conversation they just should have said molested because that’s what he was that’s what he did and that’s what he was saying that he did but you know I I don’t know

1:01:26 I think that the Press um has to sometimes protect themselves too and whenever you turn your story over to the Press it’s in their hands and they’re going to kind of have their own agendas or their own uh perspectives and they’re going to do with it what they’re going to do and I I knew I was taking that risk when the AP reached out to me and I chose to talk to them I had already had we already both had such bad experiences with with the media um that the the bar was really low so I still feel like they did great compared to anybody else but um getting back to the Sher Tanner thing she and we can use that name it’s all over there Sher told us that that’s whatever with her name so as far as she’s concerned it’s all in legal documents yeah so as well so she went first to a prosecutor that had scheduled a grand jury and he said we’re going to take this guy down on the sex abuse uh the sex sexual assault that he did of you

1:02:23 and for drugging you and it was all scheduled and Sher had even cancelled a trip a flight from boyc back to Michigan Wisin in preparation for the grand jury that was scheduled and then she got some of our statements you know where we’re writing about how just our whole story including that John had been a bishop and that we were Mormon and everything like that she thought it would be helpful to provide this prosecutor and took these the pattern prosecutor predatorial Behavior but what she didn’t know is that this prosecutor was Mormon and he does legal work for the church and as soon as he saw our statements and he realized we were Mormon that John was Mormon and a former Mormon Bishop uh all of a sudden he as Sherry put it did a 180 and was like oh we’re actually not going to prosecute this and she’s like why and said well scheduled a grand jury was scheduled he said well I think uh the we lost some evidence the Mountain Home Police lost the evidence from your phone your

1:03:28 recordings and so it’ll just be your word against his word so and so she contacted yeah so she contacted the Mountain Home Police and they were like no they’re like let us double check nope we still have everything said hold on he put her on hold and he came back and said the phone’s right here it has everything yeah and offic this prosecutor had also told her that the prosecutor in Mountain Home didn’t want them to arrest John on those char es because it could distract from theirs and so Sher contacted her and we contacted her and she said I never said that I was actually looking forward to it it it it proves my case more so she had been lied to by this Li to yeah and so she was devastated she she was so upset that she told you know the prosecutor’s office in boyy she was like I’m going to take my recordings and all this evidence and I’m going to go to the media and I’m going to tell them that you’ve done that because this guy was Mormon looks like he’s wanting to cover this up for

1:04:28 another Mormon guy you know and for the church church and so then they were like no no no we’ll assign you a new prosecutor so they assigned her a new prosecutor who was a Mormon and that prosecutor got her some justice because my dad ended up getting sentenced on drugging Sherry illegally and he got a felony for that got three years of Probation and I think 90 days work relas relas jail time yeah 90 days work released jail time but he got the felony the judge never heard the recordings so he didn’t even know there was a sex Prime that’s the sad thing is that because of a plea deal because of a plea deal the judge never got to hear the recordings uh where my dad is admitting to raping Sherry um the judge never even got to see or hear those so of course the judge wasn’t going to sentence him on sexual assault because the judge didn’t get to see the evidence for that so that that’s what happens you know with plea deals uh

1:05:27 and I think that there’s a lot that needs to change with legislation around obviously both the clergy privilege law and also just other laws related to sexual predators and how they’re handled including fals oh my gosh th this is so layered and complex and I’m just fuming this guy is just getting away with all of this stuff I mean I am not a lawyer I feel like we need to get get Colby on this is there something that can still be done to seek Justice to put him away he’s clearly dangerous yeah yeah that’s really where it came to for us um when we realized that my niece and nephews are in danger that my dad is still a practicing dentist in the state of Idaho and yeah we thought he had sold his practice and retired and we’re surprised that he just moved to boisey and took on a new look he grew this Fu man cheu type mustache and he goes by the name of Duke yeah heang he changed his appearance quite a lot before he was

1:06:33 like this clean shaven like preppy Mormon dentist yeah Mormon Bishop looking guy and now he’s got like this big mustache and dresses kind of like cowboy is and goes by Duke Dr Duke so yeah he goes by like a new name yeah and it’s not we really didn’t want to step back into I mean Chelsea had you know it had been years and we tried to make the best of we could of our lives and move forward and she had just finished a three-year master’s program in clinical Psychotherapy and Was preparing to set up her practice and to working that when the situation arised for her to get a subpoena to testify yeah um because part of that non-disclosure had a little tiny caveat that of course all that was sealed up except with the exception of a court order subpoena and so who would have imagined a situation would come yeah that would actually that would happen and once he saw that things were entered into the legal system he could see that she was on she had been subpoenaed oh yeah my my

1:07:42 dad when he found out that I’d been subpoenaed to be deposed this year to witness in the divorce case on behalf of my niece and nephews and for their protection uh my dad sent me a threat letter it was like not notorized witnessed whatever yeah um by himself he was he signed his own witness wi yeah we thought that was kind of weird but anyway so he sent this threat letter um saying that he was going to if I testified he’s going to sue me uh take away your professional licenses he’s going to take away yeah my he’s going to destroy my career and anyway so I when you consider that a subpoena is a court order to appear yeah so he was demanding he was putting in the the position that you you ignore the court order which means you could go to jail you’re in contempt of court or you do what I say yeah or I’m going to harm you in so whatever ways I can and so that was a really scary time honestly um we did not stay in our home for several

1:08:45 months during that time we had some sweet friends that let us live in their home for a few months earlier this year so that we could time and what all that was going on so it’s been it’s been a year that we didn’t expect but knowing that my grandchildren are in danger if not worse already I know that other people’s are too it isn’t just about my grandchildren it’s about everyone’s children and clearly not just children um when he has access to this conscious Amnesia drug and if you go on the website where he’s currently working it’s posted up that they offer that service and most dental offices don’t he did in Mountain Home and felt that he was he was very proud that he did that when most dentist don’t so that clinic is now offering meaning he has access to the conscious Amnesia drug that he uses there so yeah and I and I don’t think I mention this but in that Statesman article about the Sher Tanner case the Idaho dentalist

1:09:54 Association said that after John got his felony they told the media that they were going to take away his Dental license and that never happened instead I guess they sent him to some kind of training like weekend training for dentist with boundary issues in Texas something like that um very strange instead of just taking away his license so he like sexual sexual assault of a patient is a boundary issue yeah right yeah so he’s still practicing with an unrestrict restricted license and Sher Tanner had had provided the Idaho Dental Board with the audio recordings of him asking her to lie to the police and say this was consensual him asking her to lie and say there were no drugs involved they had those recordings and on the same recordings they heard him talking about abusing Chelsea for years yeah so here you see like this whole system working together where uh you’ve got the church you know that let him go free the criminal system the

1:11:01 Idaho Dental Board professional and it reminds me of an article that the AP printed a few years agoo about privileged professions I think the title had something to do with privileged professions really good article it was about like how kind of like what I told you chalas that Tina shindle the first prosecutor told me at the beginning of the Criminal Case when she said you know the prisons aren’t full of wealthy well-connected pedophiles generally and or sex offenders and uh I think that this article that AP did was kind of talking about that like why do people who are dentists and doctors and attorneys why did they get away with sometimes just the most blatant heinous crimes that other people that don’t have that status in society aren’t like an important man in society don’t get away with it’s a good question you saw that recently with the Oregon case with the Oregon doctor right that

1:12:01 had abused so many LDS women and it went on for years over 200 women yeah and if he had been a janitor I don’t know that it had would have gone on that successfully that long but the wealthy privileged professions that article is a worth a read I I can really see that playing out in our case yeah I don’t did I tell you I I think I told you yet chiss that when my sister had her first child that that little girl was a danger of my dad because my sister had moved in for a little while with my dad with her little girl and I was unbelievable you have to realize this was just shortly after the criminal case had been dropped in the small town so in order to freshen up the pr no everybody would know that nobody’s going to move their child in if their dad’s a pedophile right yeah and so and my dad he had pressured her he was putting the bill for for her and her new her husband for her life at least for

1:12:58 her I don’t but her husband was uh he didn’t know as much as her though she knew so much better but yeah I was so scared for my little niece and so we couldn’t believe it when we heard that they had moved that baby into the home with him yeah it again was like a nightmare that won’t end I thought what did we go through all this for to protect my grandkids if you’re going to choose yeah to risk put your child in such Harm’s Way yeah it was like our worst nightmare so I actually wrote an email to Paul ring at that time this was like after everything uh this was after you know we had signed the contract with him and everything like six months later so a few months later and I reached out and I was like Paul I was like do you realize like my sister has moved in with my dad with her little child and I’m really concerned and Paul wrote back and he was like yeah the church is very concerned as well that’s what he wrote and he said you know there’s really nothing that we can do though like

1:14:03 except for pray for them and um don’t give me that pray for them BS yeah and he said and I you know he could see that I wasn’t going to that was not going to work for me and he was like well but you know we could um reach out to Bishop Miller the church could reach out to Bishop Miller and tell him to talk to your sister and brother-in-law and I was like to take him aside I was like yeah please like anything you know because we felt that especially my son-in-law was you know very very devoted to the church and sees the higher up church members as the authority so we thought if they were to tell him yeah my brother-in-law get your baby and get out of there yeah my brother-in-law would have definitely obeyed what Bishop Miller said but the church never did that I mean according to what I I talked to my brother-in-law later and he said never happened he said know that never happened he said I absolutely would have listened to Bishop Miller and obviously Bishop Miller knew

1:15:00 how dangerous John was more than anybody else yeah Bishop Miller had more knowledge of that than anyone else well although I guess all of the attorneys at the helpline also know and maybe the social workers who answer the phone and maybe the social workers at the helpline it you know it’s like where does the clergy privilege like who gets that the privilege of getting to know what the confession was nobody but the attorneys I guess or like it’s just kind of weird you know like we can’t know but but all these people at a helpline can know yeah what my dad did to abuse me so strange oh wow you guys have been through so much and I can’t even imagine how hard that must have been mentally just one thing after the other and I mean how are you doing now are you coming up for air I mean I IM there’s still a lot of pain there of course yeah I’ll I’ll finish up really quick sh by saying that um after I reached out to Paul and I could see the church wasn’t going to do anything about the little

1:16:04 girl I reached out also to M more County like the police and prosecutor and they ignored me and then I reached out to the Idaho attorney general’s office I emailed the Idaho attorney general and his office responded replied to me and said well you know yeah there there may be uh problem here and uh the prosecutor you know she may have been in the wrong to who knows drop that case but they said we can’t investigate into this because since Miss qan now works for our office that would be a conflict of interest for us to investigate into this H just when I thought that it was over there’s more Chelsea my goodness but the IID attorney general is LDS has been for 20 years each one succeeding those that work the office there’s a high percentage all more um running the state so I don’t know it just it reached such a helpless place and I guess to answer your question if we’re doing better I think that we did have a couple years of Peace where we weren’t just kind of stepped away from this whole battle and

1:17:10 we were like okay you know what more can we do and then this year everything surfacing you know with my sister’s divorce case and us uh wanting to help protect my niece and nephews uh it’s been a rough year again it’s been really intense and challenging because you know I think that I don’t want to sound self-righteous here or something but I think that doing the right thing often is hard it’s never easy it doesn’t mean that it stays hard forever but it means that when you push against the system right and when you try to fight against powerful people who have more power than you who are willing to do just about anything to serve their means and ends even at the expense of others when you’re pushing against that kind of thing then yeah things are probably G to get worse before they get better you know yeah how about you Lorraine how are you doing yeah you know I think in some ways kind of reiterating what Chelsea just said that when you

1:18:22 step into that Arena to call out sexual abuse that there’s a chance if the person you’re going up against is powerful and influential you may get crushed like my health I had way more than just seven strokes there were so many diagnosis I was shutting down I was dying but what I learned in this process is they can’t destroy your soul they can’t destroy your dignity and you know with God’s help we were able to rebuild a lot of those things that were taken from us crushed I I lost half my family I lost my beautiful home I lost my community I lost my religion I lost a lot but I never lost my my soul my determination to rise above and to continue to tell the truth you know one of the things that came forward when Miss qan called us in to drop the charges to tell us that she was dropping the charges she referred to the recording and my other daughter and her husband as being these brand new excellent Witnesses against me later we did get

1:19:36 the recording and at the end of the recording my son-in-law said they said a lot of things about me that made me a lot more fiery and exciting of a life than I had but one of the things that he said at the end was he said to this private detective on this recording he said you know Lorraine seems to think she’s on some some kind of mission from God to protect children they said it kind of sarcastically you know mockingly and I remember we paused it when we finally listened to and I said shouldn’t we all aren’t we all supposed to be here to protect children and vulnerable people like it’s making fun of me but I actually took it as a compliment and the irony is truth will eventually come out out and now we’re back in that you know that Arena that battle with that same person trying now to help to be on a mission from God to protect his children so I think that people can Crush you in the process of truth but they can’t take who you are

1:20:41 away they can’t take your soul and your your spirit and your fight sometimes it feels like they did take you your spirit but they can’t really do that and I’m I’m really grateful for that that yeah they couldn’t control my my mind you know they they had a lot of control but we couldn’t take away who we were MH well just from my perspective I have to thank you for everything that you’ve done for Chelsea and for your grandkids I was getting I’m like holding back tears because I really see so much of my own mom and you and just the way that you stood up for Chelsea oh my gosh don’t cry um is so beautiful because we know by statistics that not often do the mothers stand by their children when there is abuse in the home and so what you’ve done is incredible and I’m so happy that Chelsea has you and that you have the relationship that you have we’ve been really fortunate thank you for that it just I’ve had other people say that but I never felt courageous I felt afraid the whole time but I just I

1:21:51 didn’t feel like there was any option but rather than to stand up and tell the truth and yeah I don’t feel Brave I just I feel like a survivor of myself of all of this so but thank you for that if my courage I guess it was courage could help Inspire somebody else in a similar situation it won’t be easy in fact it may be the worst hell you’ve ever been through but I get to know that it’s not on me anymore what he does it’s not on me yeah yeah absolutely I would second that and you’re right chalise my mom is incredibly courageous and I can’t imagine what I would do without her and what I would have done if she had responded to all of this differently than she did um than standing by me and with me and being willing to walk away from my dad even though she was going to go through such hell in that process and I think that what my mom just said is a lot of our message for people is that yes if you speak up against especially a powerful abuser it’s probably going to get worse

1:23:01 before it gets better but then you get to still have your integrity you still get to have your soul you still get to be able to look in the mirror and sleep at night well I still don’t sleep at night but um but you still get to you know you don’t have to wonder if you had done something differently or done the right thing that maybe then you know a kid that got abused wouldn’t have gotten abused it’s not like we really have control over those things but at the same time all we can do is what’s in our power of our little circle of influence to do that’s right and beyond that if something still goes bad you don’t have to feel like you didn’t do your part and you didn’t at least try and we do feel that way that we at least we have tried we’re still trying now uh even though we were ready to have this all be behind us it really can’t be because so many other people wouldn’t do the right thing you know including the church and knowing what

1:24:00 they know and knows more than I do about my abuse and about the danger that JN is to children but what are they doing now you know are they are they lobbying to change legislation so that the clergy privilege law is changed enough so that at least the pedophiles aren’t protected by that they’re lobbying the opposite they’re lobing to keep the laws in place yeah they’re doing the opposite and you know for those out there that consider themselves Christian or followers of Jesus Christ I would say that you know what Jesus Christ taught is completely the opposite of how these situations are being handled within the LDS church and other Christian churches it you know Christ made it very clear how he sees those that would harm one of his little ones he said it would be better that aill Millstone should be tied around their neck and they be cast in the depths of the ocean but that’s very different from what we’ve heard you know

1:24:59 be said by these Church Representatives saying that they’re keeping the legal clergy privilege law in place because uh it protects the souls or helps The Souls of the Predator the soul of the Predator but I would ask is saving the soul of a predator who would harm one of these my little ones as Christ said so much more important than the little one yeah right it doesn’t make sense how does that work how does that work and something else that occurred to me recently is you know this concept of what Pontius Pilate did to Jesus Christ at the end we all know that story that he looked at and spoke with Christ and knew who he was and knew he was innocent but he was too afraid to do the right thing in the face of what everyone else was saying and doing and demanding and so he turned his back on Jesus Christ and then he washed his hands you know symbolically like I wash my hands of this and I walk away from it so I’m I’m not responsible and I feel like that’s

1:26:02 what a lot of people in the LDS church do and the leader the legal system and the leadership seems to be doing and sometimes in the legal system and certainly uh in people’s personal relationships with their families you know there was things said to me by certain LDS Family particularly on my dad’s side along the lines of you know that I just needed to to let go of this and that that was the Christlike thing to do was to not speak out about this and to just let it go I’ve heard the exact same thing from my extended family and that basically like you’re not even a true Christian and you’re not forgiving if you don’t just completely forget about all of this and let it go and it’s just it’s just not it’s not true it’s not right it’s not true and it’s not what Jesus Christ taught either so just you know think about that for those that consider themselves if you want to follow the doctrine of Jesus Christ for real look at how what is being done in the LDS church with how

1:27:07 these things are being handled actually contradicts that and as we speak today do I have it correct that both of you have walked away from the LDS church yeah we’re members of record but we don’t attend anymore it no longer felt like a safe place for us to be and I don’t know yeah I don’t know how I could raise a family there if I ever have a family and children I don’t know how I could live with myself raising a family in the church unless the church were to really drastically change how they handle these types of things so that it could be a safe place you know yeah do you think that you’re or do you feel that you’re doing a lot better now that out of that Paradigm yeah I think that we how do you feel mom we talk a lot about this yeah we do um I think it’s still challenging we live in a small community that has a lot of LDS and in some ways I think they’re really glad we’re gone in some

1:28:09 ways because they really did not know what to do with us when we moved here it’s kind of like people have a hard time when someone’s passed away knowing what to say but people knew and so people just kind of avoided us um people don’t know how to handle people who are different a lot of times in the church right like it’s a family centered church so if you’re not the typical husband wife and kids family and you come in with a different Dynamic and different story it’s people don’t you don’t fit in yeah they don’t know what to do or what to say and and I kind of get that to some degree but I always say where does that leave the victims if you can’t reach out if you can’t talk to them and there were other extenuating circumstances too when we moved here that we probably won’t go into because it’s another hour but but more experiences with the church not wanting to protect the innocent and do the right thing when there’s a

1:29:10 predator again up here more of that more of that and so it just started to become two eye opening it just again like Chelsea said it was no longer safe to be in the congregation for a number of reasons and I’m not it’s not something that I take joy in saying and there many things I love the church it was my life for most of my life and there were things about it that I really appreciated but when you have to weigh out your safety and well-being versus certain aspects of enjoying singing the hyms or the social it’s not worth a tradeoff when it’s not being true to what you’ve seen and what you’ve been through well I’m glad that you’re doing better now that you’re in a better head space thank you and yeah your relationship is beautiful and inspirational and I guess is there’s something that you want to talk about that makes you happy now your Consciousness side of the story something that brings you peace yeah I mean we still uh have a strong faith in God and we

1:30:21 pray we pray on our own but also together and we still feel that there’s a power in prayer and that we’ve seen miracles happen when we pray with full purpose of heart and try to do our part and I think that we have found some new friends through this process including uses that that’s very special because we have felt really isolated uh especially you know when we didn’t feel safe in the church anymore and we walked away from that it just felt so I’m sure a lot of people can relate it just felt so isolating and we just haven’t lost yeah we felt kind of lost if the church was your life and identity like you have to figure out who you are without that and that’s a process but there’s good you know on my birthday this year in August for the first time I got to meet my three grandkids six four and one yeah and so that’s been exciting to be a little part of their lives because I hadn’t been able to meet them because of things that had happened and so that had been incredibly painful and so it’s been

1:31:33 really fun and exciting for me to be able to have them to some degree right now a little bit in your life yeah it’s just yeah that was the most fun thing I’ve ever done I knew my mom she was so worried about meeting the kids because she was like you know what if what if your sister uses that like against the kids are like creates more complicated situations for kids because of how complicated things have been and and I was like you know I agree but it just reached a point where I thought it’s just it’s so wrong like I just want my mom to meet her grandkids to be able to meet them and so uh I surprised her I was like I was like we’re going to the zoo to meet this other friend and anyways and to the zoo I’m like this is my birthday you taking me to the zoo she’s like kind of weird I was like that is like okay kind of weird and it’s inoy so it’s almost three hours to go to the zoo yeah yeah it was it was all a big uh

1:32:30 Roose because when we got there uh it was my my brother-in-law with the kids and and uh we both just we just fell in love yeah with the kids they’re so precious love at first sight for a grandma right and no I wish I don’t you know my sister I don’t think knew about any of that and I wish things could be different and I hope one day that they could be but so much would have to change and heal before our family could could be semi whole again you know but yeah that’s that’s a little start in the right direction the happy thing so we find lots of things to do that we feel are contributing and positive and it’s always gratifying to feel like you’re making a change or helping somebody else in a little way even yeah like what we’re doing right now with you to feel like you know there will be people who judge in whatever way they’re going to but there will also be people who feel encouraged by what we’re willing to do yeah that’s our hope yeah absolutely I’m

1:33:34 sure this story is going to be inspirational and validating for many people watching and before we wrap up is there anything that people can do to help support you guys is there’s something that can be done we just want each person to do the right thing within their own circle of influence when it comes to supporting victims and look the other way don’t look the other way and the right thing when it comes to making sure that the sexual predators are reported to the proper authorities again even if those authorities don’t always do what needs to be done exactly how we would want just do your part just do your part because then you know that it’s not on you and I would say that we also want victims themselves to know that they are not alone they’re not alone and that they are seen and heard and loved by many other people out there like us and like you chalise who do understand and who do get it yeah and so thank you for what you’re doing thank you for what you’re doing you’re doing is reaching way more people

1:34:50 than we probably ever will so thank you you’re on the same kind of mission is just to help wake people up and to protect people yeah thank you oh you guys we’re friends now you don’t have a choice in the matter um so okay then I just need your Linda listen moments both of you either a sassy statement that you have towards someone who’s pissed you off like the viral video of the Toddler goes a sass statement or an inspiring statement I no I’m trying to remember remember what that sounds like I’m looking down at my little notes that printed off well it’s um it’s a little toddler was a viral video I think in 2017 and I don’t know why it just stuck in my head but he’s arguing with his mom he’s like Linda listen Linda he’s like trying to get a cupcake or something it’s so cute I’d already seen it I thought maybe I know you’ve seen it before you know I have Alzheimer so yeah I have an excuse now

1:35:49 that’s her excuse for everything which by the way well by the way she did a whole bunch of hyperbaric oxygen treatments which has been miraculous for helping yeah helping heal her brain yeah it gets oxygen back in anybody who’s ever had a stroke if they have access to do that it’s it saved my it saved my life Sav your life hot’s amazing for the do you have a Linda moment uh Linda listen Maybe it’s Lorraine listen yeah Mom Lorraine listen listen to me you’re always telling me to listen to yeah I think I don’t know I think I’m gonna I’m gonna go back to I’m gonna be boring and go back to uh what I just said to be my inspiring uh statement well I mean I hope it’s inspiring to someone uh obviously I think I’m very inspiring um right right she is just to do the right thing within your own little circle because like confucious said confucious say uh we have to start with purity of heart within ourselves and then we

1:37:08 can have that go out to how we behave in our relationships and then that goes out and affects our community and then that goes out and affects the larger world so just start with making sure that your heart is pure and right and is courageous and strong and where you need to be and then let let that spread out to the rest of the world and will hopefully have a positive impact on the whole world around us including you know for victims that that need our love and support all right I love it I’m sure if Linda had heard that Linda would be convinced yeah your on your yeah pleading with Linda yeah okay so hers is a lot more altruistic and kind one of my angriest moments through a lot of this was when uh a family member told Chelsea that she was denying John her dad the atonement of Christ by what she was doing and that made me so mad because I thought I thought how how dare you How could somebody even do that if they wanted to like atonement is a personal thing how how is her doing the right thing

1:38:27 even that made me mad it still makes me mad when I think about how dare somebody say that to a victim of years of sexual sexual abuse who’s being courageous and then you tell them you need to stop because you are denying your dad the atonement the atoning power of the atonement it’s like yeah just when you think you’ve heard it all like if that’s even possible it’s like abuse upon abuse so that’s my so yours is you need to say how dare you ever shame a victim yeah how how dare you decide who has control over the atoning powers of Jesus Christ yeah besides Jesus Christ how dare you shame a victim yeah so I guess that would be I got the same type of messages from my extended family and I’m just yeah I got lots of Linda listens like how much time Linda listen you got it all wrong Linda listen stop being an a cult listen listen to the survivors actually listen don’t just pretend that you know their story because you’ve

1:39:29 heard it from the perpetrator which is probably nothing near the truth Linda listen to the survivors anyways I’m G to stop there because I could just keep going but okay I’ve got I’ve got I’ve got another one I’ve got a another one okay okay I’ve got a sass we’ve got her worked up now yeah now I’m mad now I’m getting mad uh to the LDS church and to everyone else out there that needs to hear this you know stop covering up be transparent be honest and do not require ndas of child sexual abuse victims that is wrong it’s unconscionable especially when they’re in a current state of trauma and fear yeah don’t do it don’t don’t ever pay their bills but don’t don’t make them sign away being able to speak the truth and all the prosecutors out there never seal up a child sex abuse case never close a case with prejudice that is a child sex abuse case because that also is wrong don’t do it yes stop just stop

1:40:37 keep going keep going yeah we could we could go for another hour and a half with Linda listens so great thank you so much for coming on both of you and opening up and sharing your story and all the details I I mean my jaw was on the floor for most of it just could not believe everything that you guys have been through so thank you for being willing to dredge that up again and to talk about it it really means a lot absolutely welcome thank you so much jise for letting us tell our story yeah of course well do you have any other final thoughts before we go I think we’re probably ready to call it a night huh feeling complete yeah yeah guys if you’re watching make sure to leave those words of encouragement down below for Chelsea and Lorraine our guests do read the comments and it means a lot hearing those compliments and encouraging words from you and it also boosts the algorithm so more people can see this so we can expose this story and if you’d like to support the podcast you

1:41:41 can get some of our merch at cult to consciousness.com under the merch tab we have some apostates unite t-shirts for those exmos out there and I guess Jehovah’s Witnesses call them apostates too too um they’re for everybody but a lot of fun stuff you can also come with us to Costa Rica if that’s something you want to do and you want to relax and get away from the cultist sphere and just do something fun together there are some spots left you can find that in the description you can become a patron at patreon.com to Consciousness and if you like this episode I will link to down here below make sure after this if you haven’t already go watch the first episode that we did with Chelsea discussing more in depth her childhood and until next time follow your highest excitement be conscious and be [Music] well