Source: Healing from Aunt Jodi - Jessi Hildebrandt’s Update | Ep. 1873 Channel: Mormon Stories Podcast Published: March 4, 2024 | Archived: April 25, 2026

Video: Healing from Aunt Jodi - Jessi Hildebrandt’s Update | Ep. 1873
Channel: Mormon Stories Podcast
Published: March 4, 2024
Duration: 2:15:02
Views: 242,897
Category: People & Blogs
Video ID: -kOPjqNeCR0

Description

Join us as Jessi Hildebrandt, Jodi Hildebrandt’s niece, updates the Mormon Stories audience on the healing and growth they have experienced after telling their story on Mormon Stories Podcast.

Original interview: https://youtube.com/live/gCeK7sIP2Y0 Episode Show Notes: https://www.mormonstories.org/portfolio-items/healing-from-aunt-jodi/

For those who want to support Jessi: Venmo: https://account.venmo.com/u/JessiTattooer Insta: https://www.instagram.com/jessitattooer/

Chapters: 00:00:00 Intro 00:10:43 When Jodi pled guilty 00:20:30 Jessi’s reaction when the story broke 00:23:00 Why did Jodi decide to plead guilty? 00:27:30 The abuse that Jodi inflicted on these children 00:31:22 This could have been stopped fourteen years ago 00:34:10 Reacting to Ruby Franke’s statement 00:38:55 Child abuse should be changed from second degree to first degree 00:41:26 What did they think of Ruby’s apology? 00:55:30 Adam Paul Steed 00:59:25 The relationship between Jodi and Ruby 01:04:20 Jodi has more victims 01:06:20 The involvement of the Mormon Church 01:21:40 What would Jessi recommend to the Mormon Church 01:31:57 Jessi on healing and overcoming their abuse 01:49:55 Jessi being featured on other media outlets 01:53:40 What are Jessi’s future plans? 02:00:20 Forming connections when giving tattoos 02:07:50 How was her trip to Europe? 02:12:45 The final sentencing of Ruby and Jodi is still to come

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At Mormon Stories we explore, celebrate, and challenge Mormon culture through in-depth stories told by members and former members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as well as scholars, authors, LDS apologists, and other professionals.

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Transcript — YouTube panel (human-authored)

0:01 hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon stories podcast I’m your host John delin it is March 4th 2024 and we are really honored and humbled uh and grateful to have back on our show today Jesse hilderbrand hey Jesse hi thank you for having me oh it’s it’s uh it’s my pleasure um I’m sure those who uh are joining us know who you are but for those who don’t um Jesse Hilder is Jesse hbr goes by they then pronounce Jesse is the do you say nce what do you say uh yeah I mean the one of the terms is nibbling but you can you can use nice it’s fine okay nibbling your niece to uh to jod hilderbrandt who obviously uh Not only was arrested and charged with multiple counts of child abuse but recently has been sentenced uh to at least four years in prison and potentially I think up to 30 uh but yeah oh go ahead oh yeah know it was I mean according to the charges up to 60 but because she is a firsttime offender it’s like the maximum is 30

1:15 years okay yeah so um yeah so Jesse as most of you will know uh they came on more Stories podcast several months back and told their their experiences uh experience ing abuse um by their niece by by their aunt uh jod and it was a really important episode uh it was meaningful to so so many people hundreds of thousands if not over a million views I forget but it’s certainly been a well- watched episode impacted many people and since then uh jod Hilder Brand Story along with Ruby Frankie the eight passengers mom who also uh was imprisoned and uh found guilty and pled guilty uh since then the stories taken the nation by storms several news outlets have covered this story nationally internationally I think a at least a few documentaries are in the works um but most importantly uh for our audience I think there’s just a lot of people that care about um you Jesse and who are just really eager to um know how you’re doing to learn about uh how things have gone

2:34 for you since telling your story and then there’s a lot of people that have questions about your resilience um how how you’ve um how this has been for your health and for your healing and recovery and I know that you Jesse uh really wanted to talk about healing and growth as a major um emphasis for today as well as talking about your thoughts on all the legal stuff that’s happened and maybe other legal stuff that could still happen so without any further Ado uh Jesse hilderbrand welcome back to Mor podcast thank you for having me again okay so where I I have ideas of where to begin but I want you to kind of lead wherever you want to lead so are there any are there any things you want to say uh up front or share I mean the after effect of coming on the show the first time was I mean risk of sounding dramatic lifechanging I mean the the amount of stories and messages that I have received thousands and thousands of messages of people unfortunately relating to my

3:52 experience and it’s just been such a humbling and beautiful experience I feel so surrounded and so supported in ways that I didn’t know were possible so thank you to everyone that has listened to me ramble for three hours in the last episode and uh for everyone that has yeah been so supportive and has been interested in this and um curious and and enraged by this I’m I’m uh like you said I’m sad and happy to hear that so many people reached out because even though we don’t want to know that or believe that abuse is so ubiquitous we know that it is especially within a Mormon context yeah and uh so when people can give voice to those who have been abused and uh and and or receive Comfort or inspiration that’s a good thing so yeah it’s uh the amount of stories that were some of them very very similar and just I mean I couldn’t read them all it was there’s so many and I I couldn’t respond to them

5:07 all I I when I had said on the previous episode I’m like yes my inbox is open please I had no idea what I was getting into I had no idea how many people would I had no context or concept of like what that interview was going to be or what it was going to be like afterwards um but know that anyone that did reach out and if I didn’t respond know that like it so meant so much to me yeah there comes a point where you just can’t you literally physically can’t respond to everything yeah I’ve I I never experienced anything like that well um I one of my I have to say one of my favorite moments in the entire episode was when we shared uh your venmo uh account and people started donating uh to your venmo account uh that made me really happy but I also loved plugging your tattoo um expertise you do tattoos in Seattle and then you say you know you mentioned that you sometimes come to Salt Lake do do you mind just sharing a little bit about uh

6:17 I if people did come to get uh tattoos from you and if so any stories or experiences you want to tell about that yeah it’s been it’s been so just shattering in the best way like everyone that has been so generous and so supportive and so kind and I have had people come out and get tattooed and it’s been just so surreal like the first couple times it happened it was just like it’s so bizarre and like the best way of like knowing these people know this part of me in such like a such a personal way but I don’t know them really at it’s just it’s a very strange a real experience but um every person that I’ve tattooed that has found me via Mormon stories has been just such a delight has been so incredible and it it the world is so small and connective and even though social media has you know it’s a LoveHate relationship I think for most of us the way that it connects it connects us is just so beautiful did did were there like Mormon

7:25 themed tattoos or just just I did one of them that was that was Mormon themed was uh I did a queer like lesbian Pilgrim couple that was like you know like very like llds hairstyles and stuff that was really fun and blasphemous but yeah that’s fun there was there’s this one woman that has come in multiple times I absolutely adore her it was her first tattoo and she had recently left the church and I think it was I think it’s been healing for both of us she’s probably around my mom’s age and has just been so maternal and like very very healing to be able to like experience that connection with her so it’s been it’s been really really amazing well we’ll we’ll have you mention uh your if you want you where again we’ll have you mention at the end where you do tattoos and if people want visit did you ever come to Salt Lake or not yet I haven’t yet know it hasn’t worked out in the in my scheduling so far but I I want to soon

8:36 okay all right well if you want maybe one place we can go next is just to talk about uh the the legal process as it relates to I don’t know the state of Utah and and Ruby and jod and kind of if you want to take us back to after their arrest uh what you know what your thoughts are what your experiences were and how that ride was for you um through the whatever statements they made through whatever came out in the press all the way up to their semi sentencing which is not totally completed yet yeah yeah I mean the sentencing is a joke I was it was really after that came out and when I realized that that’s like what Utah legally does is like push off second degree felonies onto parole board it’s so enraging um yeah I mean it’s been it’s been a roller coaster for sure um very very emotional in in both positive and very painful ways um it’s very strange and surreal to be I think I’ve said this before but to

9:51 be so overwhelmed by something that is also so validating and vindicating because and so healing but um um I was just doing an interview earlier today and something that kind of came to mind is this like image of healing is also incredibly painful like surgery is kind of the easy part you know you’re in an anesthetic you’re not really conscious you’re the thing you know like the surgery is happening but then the after the after care is where the pain is um so there was there’s been a lot of reprocessing um through this trial and through or through the I guess it didn’t go to trial but through all of this um hearing Jody’s lawyer when she when she plad guilty when her lawyer came out and made that statement it was it made me it made me sick honestly to hear her quoted saying that she loved those children and that she only wanted those kids to focus on healing and that they hope she wishes

10:57 them well and it was just such a slap in the face and just so enraging and I thought it was the thing that also made it so enraging is like to me it was such an obvious scam it was so like obviously like her just trying to be manipulative to like I don’t know sees onto any sort of like story of remorse that she can so that the parole hearing will go or like at this point the the the sentencing will go um as easy as possible but then I had people in my family messaged me that were shocked by that statement and they had to think long and hard about whether or not like what they felt about it and to think that people in my family that know her that know how deranged and harmful and destructive she is if they are almost fooled by that thinking about all the other people in the world that could also be fooled by that was just terrifying to me yeah um I think that’s one of the most um common questions I received for you Jessie is people saying well once jod

12:11 was arrested once you came out with your story once there would have been lots of opportunities for your parents for your siblings for extended family to both know your story in in depth if they didn’t but also to to be have your story somewhat vated by the judicial process did any reach out to you apologize validate um you know any of that what what’s what was your family’s respon and there’s going to be multifaceted to share about the various family responses you may have received both from your Mormon stories interview larger media interviews and then just the judicial potential valid I guess sure yeah um I mean it’s been um this has probably been the most painful aspect of this whole process um I mean I’ve had 14 almost 15 years to to talk in therapy about jod but to continuously relive this part of me of like my parents still to the this day not showing up that’s been that’s been I think the hardest thing to process um my parents still have not

13:39 contacted me about this at all [Music] um they’ve sent me a happy birthday text on my birthday last month um as if nothing happened as if the last eight seven eight months have not occurred at all um which is very you know on par for this you know the silencing culture this culture of pretending like nothing is happening this disempowered culture um I’ve had a couple cousins reach out and um apologize and show solidarity um I’ve had a couple siblings in various degrees um apologize and and show some show support I mean it’s it’s so complicated because it’s not like I wish it could just be like oh In This Moment everything is healed but everything that led to this moment all of the you know 14 years of behavior and familial culture that has allowed for this to happen doesn’t just just go away overnight and this very and I’m sure you are very aware like within them this patriarchal familial structure of you know the the nuclear family is

15:14 everything um parents are everything honor thy mother and thy father um I think it’s very comp I think it’s very difficult for my siblings to know how to navigate this I mean this is kind of my own interpretation of it but I don’t know if they know exactly how to proceed with that um but I know that they at least a couple of them are are trying in their way it is a little bit I guess mindboggling as a parent to think about not trying to get together to try and show up for you you show support for you apologize mend and heal yeah it’s hard to imagine not showing up for your kid I mean I think I I don’t really understand my father very well um I have less empathy for him but for my mom um and understanding being conditioned female especially within a high demand religion the dis empowerment that women face within those structures is just so immense and so I have a lot more sympathy for my mom and a lot more grace like patience for her um but if she were

16:43 to admit and come to me now and and support me in this that what that would entail is to then admit 14 years of backlogged behavior and invalidation that she participated in not to mention all of the things that she allowed to happen and okayed and I the depth of shame that the Mormon church just thrusts upon people upon people in general and upon women is just so immense that I don’t know if my mom has the capacity or the space to even begin that process I think that she is born and bred into that the culture of put on the blinders act like everything is fine no matter what and I mean she has how old am I 31 she’s 61 years of that you know like she is that’s a lot of deprogramming and a lot of deconditioning and re relearning and the the I mean I I don’t have children um I know my mom is not a vicious person I know she’s not a malicious person and I I can’t imagine the shame that she would be feeling and I so I think from how I how I make it make sense in my head is that

18:14 this is just the safest I mean it’s incredibly disappointing and Incredibly I mean it’s it’s devastating to me um I I just did an interview um ear like I said earlier today and in preparing for that I’ve already done one interview with with these with this news program um but this one has felt scarier and I realized that like the fact that my parents have not contacted me or like that whole feels so much more um painful than anything else so I mean Mormon this is not a an uncommon experience within the Mormon Community within within any high demand religion you know this casting away of children that do not fit within the mold that do not fit Within These confines of what it means to be Mormon a a religion of perfectionism and for so many people their their shame and their their guilt and their wounds are too great to be able to see past that I guess I I know the healing isn’t linear I guess I’m wondering I guess there was your state of of healing and acceptance prior to

19:53 jod um being arrested and prior to jod being um convicted and sentenced versus having people hear your story and getting all the support but then also maybe not getting some of the reconciliation or even the justice that you wanted yeah are you even able to say right now sort of net net whether you’re overall feeling better about things now than you were before this story broke yeah it’s oh it’s really it’s really complicated I mean overall yes I feel I mean there has been so much so much joy in my life over the last seven months there’s been so much connection so much learning to receive Comfort learning to receive support from strangers and community and friends and um this sense of surrendering into that that I’ve never experienced and I don’t think I could have experienced had it not been for this like very um kind of extreme situation um I have connected with so many people around the world I I feel like there’s been a catalyst in a lot of ways for like the healing that um like

21:21 healing that I didn’t even realize was possible that was kind of this undercurrent after after everything kind of came out after jod was arrested there was like kind of this moment that kind of created this uh subconscious healing um on top of the very intentional work that I’ve been doing um over the last several months so yes it’s a net positive for sure um that being said it’s like I don’t know if you’ve heard the phrase type to fun but it’s the type of fun where maybe in the moment’s not super fun but then after the fact it’s like going on a long hike or getting tattooed or things that like may be really hard and difficult in the moment but you’re so grateful for them afterwards it feels like it’s been a lot of that um which I’m I mean I’m I obviously love type two fun so it’s good um what has been uh well let me ask you this I don’t we weren’t able um we haven’t spoken to you since Jody first pled guilty yeah which was which was at least a month or two before the sentencing um I believe it

22:43 was December 27th that was that’s when jod um plad guilty can you tell us what you felt about jod pleading guilty versus this going to trial I know you’ve spoke about I think Jody’s statement at at her sentencing what did you think about Jody’s statement about why she decided to plead guilty and would you have rather seen this go to trial yeah sure um I don’t know if I can say how I feel about that statement on air um but it’s I think it’s complete trash I think that you can swear you’re swear I think it’s okay 100% like which part which part like all her statement about why she played guilty of like how she just doesn’t want to put those kids through more trauma and that she just cares about the kids and that’s why she’s doing this and she’s taking accountability and like no that is the only reason I believe that she took the plea deal is that because it was so obviously in her self-interest to do so I think I mean this is just

23:59 speculation I mean I I I think it’s pretty I think I have reason to believe this but um I think they had so much more on her I think if they had would have gone to trial she would have gone down in a blaze of glory um I think that there was Financial incentive for her not to like for her to plead guilty I think there was incentive all over the place for her to ple guilty and the evidence was so stacked against her that like if this went to trial she would have lost and not only she would she have lost but I think she would have lost in a very Fantastical way um so for her I think the the the statement that she made about her caring about those children was 100% just a redirection for this new you know because now she’s just focusing on becoming as likable as possible so she can manipulate the parole board into getting the shortest sentencing as possible mhm that is 100% what I believe I don’t she doesn’t care about those

25:03 children she was torturing them not a couple months ago you don’t do that and then turn around and say oh I just care about the reason I’m doing this is because I care about no that’s not what happens that’s not that’s not how it works jod is a psychopath and even the way that she like during sentencing when she’s apolog apologizing I mean it was a joke she it was so in it she’s it was just it was horrifying and and and and sickening like listening to her say things like I’m sorry that these children didn’t take well to our methods or paraphrasing like that is the most gaslighting narcissistic form of an apology that I’ve ever heard and that was another moment when I had family members reach out and and they were so confused by this statement by the way that she handled it they were like we don’t understand why like she says she’s sorry but she’s acting like this and it’s like we need to stop like ascribing a set of morals that a you

26:23 know a a healthy human would have onto her because she’s not going to act that way she’s acting in the way that a narcissistic psychopath would act and so when you when you look at her through that lens it’s no longer confusing it’s like it actually makes perfect sense she’s not sorry she’s sorry she got caught because and and I there’s been some I’ve learned some information that I I’m not at all allowed to speak about as of yet but um there’s a lot more stuff about to come out about this and I’m just so grateful that she got caught I wish it would have been 14 years ago and that these kids would never have had to go through this and I am so grateful that she got caught before more children were severely abused what what do you want to share and and this is this may be I don’t know flooding for you um or for others so let’s be as as careful and thoughtful as we can both for your well-being and others it’s at a couple points in this

27:33 process more details emerg early on there was the cayenne pepper and the Honey related to the wounds of the child that came out but over time it’s been like handcuffing like like lacerations the hog tying the making them work outside and the scorching cement without shoes like pretty graphic details about the the torture and the treatment is there anything you want to say about what you learned or how that was experienced by you um when you when you learned it or What observations you have about just the details that have come out maybe since we last talked yeah I mean some of the a lot of the details I didn’t know until a little bit further on um and some of them I didn’t know until I was like going on air to talk about it and then they did like an intro and said some of the details and I mean it is it is just sickening it is it’s I mean it’s torture she was torturing these children and the thing that more so than the physical

28:46 torture the psychological and spiritual torturing that I know that I know was happening just like at the same level like the fact that that these kids were more concerned about her when they when the police came they were they were afraid of they were like Cur like they were so concerned for jod safety they believed that they deserved it I mean the level of brainwashing and mind control that’s taking place to to have a child believe that is just horrifying and that this little boy was convinced he was going to jail like he was willing to risk jail in his mind than stay at Jody’s and and it’s it it’s it is so horrifying that this little that these little kids had to find the strength within themselves to protect themselves that they were forced to grow up that fast that they were forced to be that strong no child should have to feig should have to know what that feels like and now all of the undoing and unlearning and relearning

30:03 and reconditioning that has to take place for those kids to to ever have some abnormaly in their life to to I mean and I I was I was 16 when I went through this and the level of Destruction that happened in my life was there’s no way of qualifi quantifying it at all so to have a a 9-year-old now 10-year-old and a 12-year-old go through this and and to more a higher degree than I went through it I a and to have their mother side by side like my mom was not there she knew about some of it I think I don’t I don’t know the Le like the level of clarity my mom had on what was going on um but she also has The Alibi of not being there physically but to hear the things that these children were put through and the thing that is so enraging is that this could have been stopped 14 years ago if people would have listened the people that saw saw and did nothing they are in my mind partly responsible for this and I know it’s more complicated than that I know I understand the level

31:44 of disempowerment and fear and and control that the church has over these people I understand that and they were adults that that saw this abuse happening and did nothing and because of that and then when I tried to go to the cops the cops did nothing and when I tried to bring It Forward in 2012 my family shut that down like there were many many opportunities for this to be stopped and no one did anything and the result of that is now these children have to live with this trauma for the rest of their lives and it is just it is so enraging um I’ll ask you about your thank you for that and I totally agree I think we especially within Mormon culture I don’t probably other religious Traditions too there’s just this bizarre practice of silencing and punishing victims and protecting and empowering and even and empowering this Mormonism breeds and empowers narcissists it is it is such a narcissistic religion it’s they thrive in this environment because they know that that their their

33:17 victims will be silenced they know that no one can touch them they’re told they’re special they’re told like it’s just it’s just it’s the amount of Shame and like you are special that combo that exists within the Mormon community and the Mormon culture is just off the charts and that is a breeding ground for narcissism yeah it’s so weird um Jesse I’m I want to hear your reaction to uh to Ruby Frankie’s statement at her sentencing but before that there were lots and lots of people trying to make sense you know let’s just say there I know that nothing’s ever a binary but one scenario is jod is is a cult leader jod created a cult and Ruby is as much a victim of a cult within a cult so jod hilderbrand’s connection cult within Mormonism that’s sort of some call that a cult within a cult and then Ruby’s a victim just like anyone else was a victim of jod and there have been many or people whove been victims

34:27 of the Mormon church or other other Cults so there’s one framing of Ruby as a victim and then there’s another framing let’s just say on another Spectrum the other pole of the spectrum where Ruby is complicit or even more responsible because she’s the mom I I it it it’s probably hard for you to come down on that but I’d love to hear any thoughts or comments you have on that well I think this is a perfect example of what is one of the the most dangerous ways of thinking from religion this idea that there is a singular truth and a singular truth only is I think what causes this confusion I think there’s truth to both of those statements I think that first and foremost she is their mother and she’s an adult and she is responsible for them 100% I also do think that jod is a cult leader and I also do think that jod is very good at brainwashing and very dangerous when it comes to that type of behavior so it’s it’s complicated

35:34 because it’s hard to hold both things as true at the same time but I think it’s really important that we do so Ruby is their mother and responsible and she has to be held accountable absolutely but the level of of evil in the most secular way possible um that Jodie has that she elicits and expels and creates in her life and in lives of everyone else I don’t think holds a candle like I I think that’s very different than what we’re dealing with with Ruby I think Ruby probably was very primed in her like she was already pretty controversial in the way that she disciplined her kids um and I think that there’s probably um I don’t know there this idea of like you are special I think jod probably played into that with her um but I absolutely believe that Jody manipulated the out of Ruby and and her husband and so many other people like the I think the thing that with Ruby is that Ruby had a platform and I think that’s why jod jumped on it

36:55 Ruby had a platform and she was she was um vulnerable to this type of attack and and so Jody took advantage of it that being said she’s still she’s still 100% responsible for what she did to those children yeah that makes sense what what did you think about Ruby’s because I I mean that going to to Jody’s statement at the sentencing hearing versus Ruby’s jodies was chilling because there was literally zero apology and like you said just this chilling yeah expression of uh this this chilling expression of concern for the kids and a and know you know good wishes for their welfare which just felt chilling and awful and gross and terrifying we to me no she’s a complete psychopath it’s it is terrifying and this that is why right there is why it’s so en like it’s so viscerally enraging and terrifying to know that her future is determined Now by parole by a parole board that will continuously she’ll have continuous like opportunity to plead her case plead her

38:24 case and that puts the onus of responsibility on to the victims to continuously have to relive their trauma to make sure that she is kept in where she belongs away from anyone and everyone that’s vulnerable and I I I I I so hope that the state of Utah changes its laws that laws are that that whoever needs to be whatever needs to happen to to change child abuse from a second degree into a first degree whatever needs to happen to make that happen I I so hope it does yeah because every time they get to go to like to they get to have a parole hearing those children myself all the other victims but mainly those children will have to live in fear maybe they’ll get out maybe she’ll get out and jod the masterful manipulator that she is that’s her favorite phrase that she just threw at all the time um who knows what what if she is gets what if she gets to talk like whoever’s on the parole hearing or the parole board what if they don’t understand what they’re dealing with what they what if they don’t understand how dangerous and

39:37 terrifying of the person this is and that she gets out in four years in four years in Idaho you know it’s it’s 99 99 years in prison for an abortion or for aiding someone having an abortion yet like you call yourself Pro life that gets you 999 years in prison but to viciously torture children that are alive and viable four years in prison are you kidding me I mean it’s just this I this this is something is so wrong this idea like especially within the community you know the Utah conservative religious community of they claiming their pro-life and yet this is the these are the this is the legislation that’s that that exists make that make sense so um I guess I guess and I don’t I don’t know much about about the law is what you’re saying Jesse that if that if child abuse or child torture whatever it is was made a first-degree felony then they would have the option of either uh you know no parole life life without parole or even death penalty it that that’s what would happen

41:02 if if they changed the law just so that’s that’s from how I understand it with how it’s been explained to me yes that’s what we have okay so so right now under Utah law Jesse could never get a life sentence sorry Jody Jody could Jody would never get a life sentence under the current legislation thank you I’m just trying to understand that um what what do you think what did you think and do you think about Ruby Frank apology it was sort of the opposite she not only apologized directly to Kevin her husband she apologized to her kids she was crying she was emotional she apologized to her Bishop to her State she thanked her Bishop she thanked her State president she apologized to the judge the jury she thanked the attorneys the law enforcement like it was almost like every possible Buffet option in an apology uh I I tend to just take people at their word I think I’m maybe a little bit Gable even sometimes if somebody

41:58 says something I tend to just accept it and believe it there were lots of other people that are like Ruby isn’t sorry uh you know what what what were your reactions to Ruby’s um statement at the hearing at the sentencing hearing I mean it’s hard to know you know what’s going on in someone’s head and in someone’s heart um I am more prone to believe her um I think that she I think that she is I think she’s having a very real emotional reaction I think she’s having a very real emotional response um I think that being away from Jodie um is probably having a very visceral respon like she’s probably having a very real um kind of withdrawal effect is my guess um and in a in a simil SAR way of like going off of drugs it takes time and then suddenly you’re clear-headed and you’re like oh my God how did I how did I even get here what did I do um I’m I’m I’m sure there’s some version of that that she is going

43:11 through and I think that she is a feeling person I think that I don’t think she’s a psychopath like Jodie um to the extent in which she is sorry I don’t know because she was also engaging in in pretty questional behaviors before her connection with jod and and she was okay with pain as punishment and you know her kids going without lunches because they forgot to pack their lunches or so it’s I don’t I don’t really I have a hard time um completely villainizing her because of my experiences with jod and I know how powerful jod is and I know how convincing she is and even to adults and adults are human too so I still think that she needs to take accountability in the full extent of the law um I think that if she was really sorry that um that’s what she would do I think if you are truly um remorseful you would serve your time especially for something like that and if and if and if she tries to

44:41 play some sort of get out of jail free card because she’s sorry I I that’s for me that would be a red flag you know would it do you think it’d be okay for jod to receive a more severe sentence than Ruby especially given the disparity statements or should the statements even matter because statements can be made up or manufactured or Faked do you have thoughts on that I I mean obviously I it’s just my experience with jod I don’t know Ruby I’ve never I had never heard of Ruby until this all came out yeah um but given my experience and the things that I’ve read the things I seen on YouTube the things that I’ve just witnessed um I try to I’m I’m really trying to approach this from a place of accountability versus punishment I don’t our system of of um our judici judicial system and and on our uh prison systems are so fixated and obsessed with punishment and I think that just breeds more of the same I think it just breeds crime and it breeds shame and it I I

46:02 don’t think it’s actually effective accountability on the other hand you know I think that is actually how um like uh Reformation happens I don’t think jod I think jod is way past that and so in that sense like I think there may be hope for Ruby that’s what it feel it feels that way and just from what I see that’s the conclusion that I that I seems logical that there’s still Humanity left in her and that she can she could um have like there could be restorative justice with her Jodie I don’t think that’s possible I think jod is a a a violent and dangerous person that will never change and I think given any opportunity to take ADV advantage of anyone she would and I think that she has proven herself time and time again that she is a danger to society and so I absolutely think that her um the the the appropriate reaction to who she is and what she has done would be considered more harsh because I think there needs to be more I think needs to be uh more safety precautions in place I think if Ruby got

47:31 out in who knows how many you know however long the the parole board sees fit however these children I think the children should have a massive say in that um to me that doesn’t scare me the idea of jod getting out terrifies me yeah I was Stu to see that Jody’s house was selling for like $5 million in Ivan Utah and if just her house was worth five million oh how much money did she have in the bank and in other Investments right oh I mean Jody Jody had jod had a lot of money when I was living with her Jody’s home she had a three-story home in in uh in American Fork Utah like one two streets down from the temple I mean and she had you know a convertible sports car like a and a motorcycle and a and a boat and ski Jets and and a a what are they called a what are they an RV like she’s been doing very well for a very long time so knowing how much wealth she had acquired by the time I was 16 I Can Only Imagine and that’s to me

48:57 that’s like a major reason why I think that she took a plea deal I think there was a lot of financial um that she would have lost a lot yeah had it gone to trial but also just if if Jody were let out the thing she could do with that money in there’s things she could do with the money while still in prison well that’s what I that’s exactly what I mean is that it’s in her best interest to maintain as much wealth as she can yeah because the the she could get out in four years yeah and then in those four years she’s just what stewing and pissed and forming a vindictive plan of attack because that’s the type of person she is yeah that’s hor that I mean I still have nightmares of this woman to this day multiple times a week I I if she were to be I I would would leave the country I would leave the country if she were if she were released yeah oh wow you leave the country I mean she is look at what she was doing to children that did nothing to

50:13 her that have done nothing to her but be children if she’s willing to do that to someone that had no power what would she be willing to do to anyone that put her in well she put herself in prison but made sure that she was put [Music] away including those children yeah uh it makes me so sad to know that anyone would potentially be punished for contributing to that Justice being served but that’s exactly what could happen I mean best case is just the jod would be legally vindictive and sue people for defamation or shut people down cease and toist letters but it could get it could get much worse I mean imagination really dark places I I when when she when I first decided to go public I remember I was I was talking to her daughter and I had this moment of just complete and utter Terror come over me like truly i’ I’ve never I like I I can’t I don’t know if I’ve actually ever experienced this before of like I mean I know this is very dark but

51:49 this this Fe this feeling of like am I physically safe right now now like would she like could she kill me and I I remember talking to her daughter and just being like am I am I crazy is this like do you think do you do you think have you thought this like you know I was trying to like gauge my own sanity um against hers but yeah that’s I mean she’s terrifying so are you in touch with with Jody’s children jod has two daughters is that right uh she’s a daughter and a son okay um I’m I’m I’m in touch with her daughter um off and on it’s kind of a complicated relationship uh I mean it’s not complicated in in the sense of like the active relationship but I think that we both um I mean she was there when I was going through what I went through with jod and so there’s not that many people that understand what Jody is and can do and how she embeds in You Like A Parasite and I know I think I may have said this last time but something that

53:19 she said to me um Jody’s daughter um something to the effect of I I can’t be around my mom because if she told me the sky was yellow I’d believe her and that is still like the most distinct way of explaining how powerful jod is because I felt the exact same way everything that she told me everything that she did I thought I deserved I thought I I was evil I thought I was these things that she said I was hearing those little kids talk about how they thought that they deserved it was just so like I know what that feels like I know what that sounds like to have that voice just echoing in your head that you deserve these horrific things because of I mean jod could make you feel like you deserved it for anything for anything that you did oh you didn’t clean that well enough oh you took one minute longer in the shower oh that’s because you don’t give you don’t care about people’s money and you are just using people and you’re entitled you’re entitled you think that you can

54:48 just use people’s water like she could she had this she has this ability to find anything to use against you and she’ll find the jugular it’s like she has like a radar detector it’s yeah it’s uh it’s something else thank you for sharing um I’m I’m pretty sure I interviewed Adam Paul Steed after I interviewed you yeah and uh that video meant a lot to a lot of people until we were forced to take it down which I was super bummed about I know that Adam attended uh jod sentencing and Adam has been muzzled at times and then lately especially at the sentencing and after he’s he’s uh opened his voice again yeah but I guess I have a couple questions did you get a chance to see Adam Paul ste’s interview before it was taken down I saw clips of it I don’t I don’t know if I saw the whole thing but I I definitely saw clips of it did and have a sense for the way that jod dealt with married couples and specifically

56:00 the way that she divided husbands from women isolated the men got everyone to accuse the men as as being child abusers when and most of the time they weren’t and then basically just wrecked marriages and wrecked so many men’s lives are you familiar with that aspect of what jod did oh yeah I am I’m very familiar with but and I mean it’s she has this way of triangulating someone has to be the bad guy there’s always it’s like the it’s like textbook like there’s the the the perpetrator the victim and then the Savior she’s the Savior and so she she finds the perpetrator It’s usually the husband he’s the narcissist everyone’s a narciss she I remember like hearing her talk about her clients and every man she saw was a narcissist according to her and that she was on the she would say things like oh I’m on the front lines fighting Satan in the flesh with these narcissistic men and so yeah and and once you paint someone a

57:14 narcissist you’re seeing them through that lens and I’m sure maybe there were narc I mean I don’t know like obviously I’m not a professional but that was very much the I mean that’s what she did with me she was the Savior I was the perpetrator my parents were the victims like this triangulation was constant in everything and so like the the separation of husbands I actually um I spoke to um I think I can say this I spoke to [Music] um oh oh so you spoke to Ruby’s husband Kevin Frankie or I I I was emailing yeah I emailed with him a couple times and I mean that was the exact the exact formula that he presented that happened to him these men’s groups these the separation the triangulation the the the just the complete and utter destruction of sense of self and self-worth and understanding of how you fit into your family like the family Dynamic and into the like you you are this internalized and complete like this belief of complete uh what’s the

58:32 word um that everything about you is is bad there’s not one part of you that’s good and that and usually I’m sure I I it seems to be that’s usually the the husband in these scenarios the woman the wife is the victim and jod is the savior yeah um you you talked a bit you alluded to some of the what I’m about to ask in in our last interview people are still trying to make sense of the nature of jod and Ruby’s relationship and even even the major networks are trying to figure out if there was something more than just a business relationship or a close friendship of course where’re lgbtq affirming on Mormon stories and we believe people’s private lives are their private lives but but they’re there there there seems to be just sort of ceaseless questions I guess around wondering whether there was a romantic relationship between Jody and and Ruby and if you if you have nothing to say about that that’s great too I was just

59:40 curious if you thought about that if there’s anything you thought you might want to share about that um I mean I have no idea what their relationship was like I know there’s I know there’s a lot of speculation about about jod and there’s been specul ation I think her whole life um I can confirm nor deny what I know about about her um orientation um I know that queerness was a an obsession of hers people’s sexual orientation this Obsession of being Queer as being evil and and being like a a perversion um yet making statements I think I said last time she made the state about how her and her friend was so wild she just like told I mean I don’t know if she told on her I I don’t know but she said this thing where she was basically saying that if her and her friends had sexual connection it wouldn’t be wrong because they loved each other but if gay people did it would be bad because that’s perverted and I I remember just being

1:00:53 like what like that’s just that’s what that’s just being gay like yeah gay couples love each other that’s why they are together like that’s so I mean I know there’s a lot of speculation and I don’t I really don’t know about ruby and her specifically I do and I do know that she tends to have really messy complicated relationships with with like women she has like a um what do they call it like with borderline personality disorder it’s like this um like almost like a hyperfixation friend I don’t remember there’s like a name for it yeah yeah um and I know that she’s been diagnosed with from what I’ve been told she’s been diagnosed with with that as well um so I think she has like these really intense hyperfixated and meshed relationships with women um whether those bleed into romance I don’t know um but I do know that they are very messy yeah um I guess I get going to going to jod sentencing if she is sentenced with the max which is 30 years that’s pretty much life in prison I’m I imagine you’d

1:02:12 be feel more guilty about 30 than four um I I’d love to hear any thoughts you have on that but also there’s got to be other victims there’s got to be other people um interested in suing jod besides Adam Paul Steed or or you know the state or Ruby yeah there’s got to be opportunities for civil lawsuits and then there’s got to be a lot of other victims that because now they don’t have to fear jod as much or they feel like now they’re safe to potentially sue her because she’s more limited in what she can do are you are you aware of other lawsuits are you interested are you even able to talk about whether you’re interested in and do you have hope for other lawsuits kind of finishing the job that maybe the Utah parole board won’t finish um I I don’t know of any active lawsuits um any other active lawsuits um I mean I would love to take her down for everything that she is worth um if only to just

1:03:26 like pay for therapy and school and all the things that I lost out on life because of her um that being said I don’t I don’t know if I could emotionally handle what it would take to act to to bring a case against her I don’t know if like the the the the cost versus reward would be um not that it wouldn’t be worth it but I don’t know if I could handle it um if I were to pursue it I would I would need help I would I would need I would need help to do that um I I hope that any victim of hers whether they came forward or not um because I’m certain I mean I know that there are more I’ve had stories people telling me um that they were DMS and emails of of my parents went to her and then destroyed her marriage I was forced to see her as a teenager I like I’ve heard many stories of people that were very affected by her to the like you know to different degrees um and not a single positive one I have not heard a

1:04:41 single positive being like anyone coming to the defense of her like I’ve heard and it was before okay so before I don’t know if this was before connections classroom or not or but before it was before it like really kind of blew up I remember if you typed in Jody’s name it would come up on it would come up like her um therapy would come up on Google reviews and it had like two and a half stars and at some point in the last few years she had that removed from Google so you can when you typed in her name connections classrooms came up instead and that was like this like filtered you know Veil that protected her um but I remember like yeah like on her Google reviews were horrific and and she was able to like esponge that from the internet unfortunately so like I know that there are a lot of people that have been affected by her and I hope if there if there’s like a collective lawsuit that is like ends up forming like a class action like yeah there’s like a class action lawsuit I

1:05:52 will sign me up and I’m sure many people would be willing to sign like sign their names off of that yeah that that’s a good idea you were um you were really uh great in talking about how uh Jody inappropriately had you work for her as both a client and a a kind of almost indentured servitude yeah and how you were able to witness that much of many of the bills that jod was sending out were to the Mormon Church oh yeah because the Mormon church was both recommending people to jod through Bishops and elsewhere but also funding a lot of this quote treatment or therapy um we we talked a little bit about this before I want to give you another chance if you’ve had any Reflections we’ve talked about Jody’s culpability Ruby’s culpability where are you Landing these days on the Mormon Church’s culpability and all this both in terms of its Doctrine its theology and specifically it’s enabling and empowerment and it’s enriching jod wouldn’t have 5 to 10 whatever5 to 10 million dollars in net worth I’m

1:07:04 assuming if if it weren’t for the Mormon church so I’m curious if you’ve had Reflections on any of that oh absolutely I think the Mormon Church the culture I mean but really I mean it’s the church the organization I think is so responsible for this like I understand that you know the everyday Mormon is not going to be like the people and and I I don’t want to use the phrase that like that they themselves use all the time like people are imperfect and the church is perfect but like or the doctrine is perfect but I like I don’t hold every Mormon responsible for this of course but the people that were in power that were aware of her that that that fed into her that edified her that deceived people by claiming that pornography addiction is a real thing and then and then uh using the church funds to to heal you know to you know to use the like it’s like conversion therapy for pornography is so destructive and is very much empowering women or not just women

1:08:24 like people like jod to have a a voice of influence that she should never have had and the like there’s legal issues here too because I know I said this before in the dsm5 pornography addiction is not a thing it’s not real you C you cannot according to the dsm5 which is what insurance is use to be buil like you know it’s all based off of um um what’s it called called when you’re with by on diagnosis um so what they would do is they they would tell the client hey you have pornography addiction hey your son your 14-year-old son you know he’s a porn addict um you need to go to to jod don’t worry we’ll bill your insurance for depression but but we’re gonna we’re going to um use methods for pornography addiction so that there was a lot of Deceit going on in that way as well and it’s just I 100% hold the church responsible the church Bishop Binger the per my Bishop in American for American Fork I think it was the eighth

1:09:36 Ward is what I remember Bishop Banger he knew exactly what was happening I had meetings with the bishop with jod and my grandparents and he dead ass looked me in the eyes and told me he was trying to break they were trying to break me like a horse like they knew what was going on they’ve been funding and supporting her this entire time giving her clients giving her wealth and they’re just going to try and I think maybe that even played a part in the in the plea deal like what you know that I don’t know if the church wanted this attention and so I I I mean this is all speculation but it wouldn’t surprise me if the church wanted this to go away as quickly as possible because if I think if they opened that door that can of worms a lot of skeletons would come out that the church probably doesn’t want people to know about yeah yeah yeah yeah if there’s a if if if it simply goes to the Discovery phase where Jody jod hbt

1:10:42 has to provide all the invoices and client lists Y and uh techniques and methods and referral sources that implicates the church right there so the church wants this settled before any evidence uh implicating the Mormon church can can be revealed I fully stand by that I think that there’s so much truth to that let me just also just ask you this in addition to the Mormon Church supporting jod referring people to jod and giving jod so much money apparently there’s just the core doctrine that um extramarital sex sex before marriage sex outside of marriage and any same-sex sexual activity those are all sins next to murder which doesn’t just you know touch on pornography addiction and masturbation but it’s also what allowed you and others to be you know kidnapped and sent to trouble teen centers in Utah or put um you know under the care of jod which then led to the abuse and it’s not just just you obviously it’s not just

1:11:55 Jody’s victims but there’s an entire trouble teen industry oh yeah fueled at its core you know there’s there’s drug use that concerns parents but many people you know we had someone on Mormon stories recently all they did was they had sex this is a woman who had sex with her boyfriend at age 17 and her parents basically kidnapped her and sent her for months to a trouble teen center oh but it’s God but it’s rooted in this Mormon teaching that’s in the Book of Mormon that sex to murder marriage is next to murder which okay like I’m not like I don’t I’m not trying to like argue Doctrine because I don’t think it’s true I think it’s all but also like when they were talking about sex outside of marriage they were talking about Affairs they’re not talking about premarital sex like that’s first of like that alone is like so frustrating um but outside of that like the shame that in I was I was talking about this about this this morning actually when you internalize

1:12:58 this belief that sex is second to murder coffee and beer and heroin are the same um showing your shoulders and having cleavage will get you raped and it’s your fault and it’s actually your responsibility to make sure that men don’t think bad things about you when you’re internalizing this all in in this this narrative about yourself and how you fit in into this it’s just it’s a breeding ground for this type of like punishment because you have no barometer for right and wrong like your your your senses your sensors are so skewed when you think something like having sex I mean one of the one of my young women’s lessons I remember she had a sucker had the gave it to the first girl and was like okay now pass it down that’s you that’s you if you’ve had sex and you’re like I think I was like 13 maybe young 12 I mean I was like 12 to 14 years old when this like with this lesson and at that time too it was I I must have been I must have been like 14 because at that time I had a friend who had had sex in that like that was a part

1:14:12 of our group and I don’t know if they knew but I knew and it’s like the shame and the guilt that these these adults are just shoving down these kids’ throats for for no reason except like this this I mean it’s control that’s what it is it’s coercive control and and going also talking about the the the very um dangerous doctrines that are taught within the church the the doctrine of personal revelation like very literal personal revelation and the structure of patriarchal you know your dad is the patriarch of of your family he received Revelation for the family those two things are just a recipe for abuse and the and the rationale to support abuse and that’s what jod that’s the thing that’s one of the things that jod like used all the time was this like oh God spoke to me in a dream and then if you have the doctrine to support that of personal revelation you know and Moroni like ask and you shall receive or whatever when that is Tak to a literal

1:15:25 you know definition it’s literal definition and implemented in a very literal way you can get away with anything I mean we’ve seen this time and time again I mean I’m I’m sure sure you’ve seen under the banner of Heaven Aliza smart there’s so many like and those are the extreme ones but like the daytoday smaller ones that you can just Rize anything because of this Doctrine yeah yeah and and I think also a point I wanted to make is just like we talked about Ruby’s responsibility versus jod you know your parents as I I’m as I’m trying to remember your story I’m pretty sure they were terrified that you would have sex or that you would have lesbian sex or whatever and that’s why they were willing to do something so Extreme as put you in Jody’s care send you to another state to no longer be in their custody or care because they had been conditioned and terrified by the Mormon church that if you had sex you would then be committing a sin next to murder so that’s that’s one of the things I’ve been frustrated with some

1:16:38 media Outlets they want to talk about the handcuffs and the honey and the cayenne pepper and the hog tying of the children but they don’t want to talk about you know they want to talk about the sentencing or jod but they don’t want to talk about the Theology and the doctrine that’s at the root of creating this and all the other perpetrators that are going to come later well that that I was I was I was just talking I was just talking to someone earlier today about this I was leaving the interview I had done and I was talking to the person that I’m I’m seeing and I was like the thing that I’m so frustrated about with like the documentaries the true crime stories that are about things like this is that they’re all individualized they’re all these like very you know sensationalized stories that get a lot of attention and it just kind of remains in this cocoon over here but there’s no string that attaches all of them and

1:17:32 it’s like what is foundationally and culturally allowing for these people to rise to power in a very consistent way to take advantage of these children or just vulnerable populations in general and like how do we get to that route so we can stop it from happening in the first place because until we get to that this is going to be repeated it may look different it may have a different name but it’s going to be repeated the fact that like anastasi and all of these programs have been around for so long all of these um was it compass point there was like all the schools in Utah were all of these like celebrity kids and non- celebrity kids are sent to and the amount of abuse like with Paris Hilton that came out and talked about it like this is this has been going on for so long and because of these stories are just indiv visualized it’s never getting to the root of it and if we want to get to the root of it we have to have those

1:18:29 uncomfortable conversations about the culture at large about the culture that disempowers its people and to keep them in control like the coercive control actually I want to grab a book real fast yeah and I’ll just I’ll just while you’re grabbing the book I’ll just say that um what’s hard about the Mormon Church the Mormon Church would have to change the Book of Mormon to change the the doctrine of the passage that sexual sin is next to murder um in in evil and as soon as the Mormon Church changes the Book of Mormon yet again does it in such a public and obvious way um it’s it’s you know people are going to wonder whether Joseph was making the book up right or why would they change it I mean it’s it’s already happening that’s already like there’s the mass Exodus of like of people leaving the church because of these like oh actually we’re going to change this because it’s people are kind of like like even like how the for strength of Youth pamphlet no like I

1:19:28 guess like now you can have tattoos and now you can have like a second piercings but like that was like the most horrible thing you could possibly do to your body and then overnight it’s just fine like are you kidding me and and people are picking up on this they’re seeing it I know I’ve had conversations with people that are still in the church and they’re like wait I thought God was you know the same today as it was yesterday is forever um I had a friend um give me this or like let me borrow this book it’s oh yeah I don’t know if you’ve heard of this oh we we’ve had Luna lindsy corbon on Mormon stories yeah I need to listen to her episode because oh my God is non-binary they don’t pronounce by the way okay I have to listen to their their profile or their their their um their episode it’s it’s like it’s actually like five episodes It’s so brilliant that we had to do it in like five episodes but it’s really good yeah oh I can’t wait to listen to

1:20:23 it this is this is just changing there the connection because it’s all the same you know the connection of like mind control I mean I know the word mind control is very very loaded but like mind control and brainwashing it’s it’s when you get to the micro level and the macro it’s all of the same and that’s like that is right there is what jod is tapping into and that’s what the the culture is just deeped with this it’s just so primed bled for this and Jody saw it and was just like sweet yeah this is mine for the taking it’s like kaching yeah it’s like oh I’m gonna this Harvest is wonderful I’m just gonna have all these apples like that’s so dark yeah but it’s it’s also so true and so like having and I I I still I think there is hope that there can be at least some shifting in the church because the church isn’t going away it’s going to be here and so working within that to make at least some shifts forward I think is important um what recommendations would

1:21:37 you have to if the more I’m sure the Mormon church at some level is watching this interview I know I’m putting you on the spot with this question but do you have any tips or advice to the Mormon Church based on the experiences you’ve had and the life lessons you’ve learned not just with jod but just having been raised Mormon and and everything what what tips or advice would you give the Mormon church if you can think of anything on on the spot sure I mean for a culture that is so obsessed with the nuclear family um I think that we need to have a rewriting of parenting like a very deep rewriting of how we parent um and that’s that’s more than just the Mormon church too I think that’s like the collective at large and I think there is a shift happening um people like Dr Becky Kennedy um she is a she’s a psychologist focusing on gent she like does like gentle parenting and internal family systems she has a book called good

1:22:39 inside that I uh recently read and I want to reread it because it’s so good it’s a parenting book but it’s also um really wonderful to use the tips and the tools for like reparenting in like somatic practices and whatnot um it’s been really helpful and healing for me um so like the shift away from this topd down authoritarian style parenting which is just again it’s like this microcosm of the collective of the like the the culture at large and um and and starting more of like this bottom up of loving just loving your children supporting your children listening to your children I mean children are the most marginalized groups of people in the world because you have marginalized people and then you have the children within those marginalized communities they are the most not like unbelieved pushed to the sidelines like they are they are the most marginalized group of people and so this we need a shifting away from that mentality into

1:23:45 into love to loving children we need to believe them we need to stop thinking that they’re just little adults I think that’s something that like so many people struggle with is that they look at a child and they’re like you’re just a small little adult when their brain is a quarter formed and so like teaching children how to self-regulate how to like like a coach almost I think the parenting style of coaching I think is a really beautiful concept of like teaching skills and teaching children to love themselves with kindness um I’ve been just kind of obsessed with learning as much as I can about gentle parenting and the more and more I learn about it the more I like I think that is the that is the way of the future if we want to change our present like we need to focus on the Next Generation and teach them to love themselves and teach them to believe themselves to stand up for themselves to trust their experience to trust their

1:24:45 intuition because that I think is a big reason why this these types of things happen is that you have a group of people that don’t trust themselves they they abandon their intuition they abandon themselves their values their morals for this authoritarian figure and in this case it was jod but in another case it could be someone else this like this lack of um critical thought that is very much it’s like it’s taught right like this is very intentionally or it’s very intentionally not taught to just like turn like just to trust whoever is in charge and that and the scary thing I don’t know if you experienced this at all but I know that for myself when I left the church I kind of fell for a lot of and I I kind of like went from one kind I left the Mormon church and then I went to like straight edge like very like into like anarco Punk straight edge veganism but I found I found I was still very much in the mindset of a

1:25:47 singular truth truth of the capital T I just need to like I need to have an authorit figure telling me what to do telling me what to wear telling me what to listen to it was like kind of like just a new Dogma that replaced the old Dogma because I was still the programming was still the same and so like I had to teach myself through classes I had I took classes on critical thought because I I saw how little like how I didn’t have really any skills in that department and now the more and more I learn about it the more I learn about trusting myself the more I do somatic therapy and somatic work the more I learn about my intuition the more I learn about you know building trust in myself the more space I have for other people the more space I have for other people’s experiences the less I want to control things like it’s just that I think is the I think that is the only way forward yeah yeah the idea I love that idea of parenting that one way I’ve

1:26:52 heard it described is parents aren’t like Carpenters that like cut up wood and make things they’re more like gardeners where they the seed is what the seed is and then the seed gets planted and the parent can help nurture and provide the conditions for that seed to grow into whatever it was meant to grow into but the parent isn’t the one deciding what it grows into yeah the seed is growing into what it was always meant to grow into does that make sense absolutely and there there’s a there’s a video on Dr I’m obsessed with Dr Becky Kennedy if you don’t know who she is I highly recommend looking her up she is a joy I absolutely love her um but she uses this analogy of a coach a lot and there was one video in particular where she was saying like you know if your child kept missing a a like a a layup in basketball you wouldn’t go tell that child to go to its room like if the coach was like go to your room you’re bad because you keep missing this

1:27:55 layup like you’d be like that’s really stupid like that doesn’t teach the child anything that just teaches them that they’re bad like you would be you would be frustrated with that coach but if you replace the layup with anything else with any other sort of life skill that’s a very common like go-to practice for parents of oh you having a tantrum go to your room but that doesn’t teach a child anything that doesn’t teach them any ulation skills it teaches them not how to fill their emotion if anything what it does is it put this is when they this is the beginning of when people start abandoning themselves they learn I’m bad my reaction my my emotions are bad I’m going to shove this down I’m going to ignore what I feel I’m going to ignore what I think I’m going to you know do whatever I have to do to have mommy and daddy love me and that just continues into adulthood and those creates you know these these people that deny who they are deny themselves and then have no ability to hold space for other

1:28:52 people because I think that also is happening these parents are seeing their children that are acting in such authentic ways when they themselves have no contact or ability to access their own authenticity and so there’s projection there’s jealousy there’s anger and shame that all comes up and they want to push down their child because they were themselves were never allowed to have authenticity so I think that’s like the generational trauma that’s happening on top of you know under the umbrella of coercive control that’s going on within the church so it’s we need to get I mean healing therapy like good somatic therapy and internal family systems those are the two forms of therapy that I found the most healing and the most helpful um there’s a really great book as well that has been really helpful for me called nonviolent communication I think everyone would benefit from listening or reading that

1:29:52 book um it’s all about self- witnessing witnessing other people empathy holding space holding space within ourselves and and it it’s all in the framework of account self-accountability but not in a way that is kind of like gross capitalistic pull yourself up by the Boost drop kind of way like in a very genuine um way that is actually I think really healthy beautiful I’m goingon to almost withdraw the question about what you would tell the church to do because the church is like worth $260 billion do at this point they can they they don’t care about what I say figure it out they can figure it out on their own but let’s turn now I know that healing was a really important healing and growth is a really important part of why you wanted to do this episode and if I had to pick maybe another set of questions that were really prevalent people just want to know number one how you’re doing and people find uh Jesse

1:30:51 your your affect your communication style your wisdom very inspiring so the types of questions I’m getting in Mass about for you Jesse are like how does what how did Jesse heal how is how is Jesse doing with emotion regulation with self-care what tips how how has Jesse healed after so much trauma and what tips or tricks would Jesse offer for those of us who are trying to heal from trauma and I know that’s not just you know an entire podcast it’s multiple podcasts but what what what would you like to sh share uh in response to some of those questions yeah I mean I mean those are tough they’re very complex and hard to unpack because they’re multifaceted and all connected um I mean first and foremost I’m I’m not here healed that’s the the the the the idea of like that I’ve arrived at healing is is not is not true um I am triggered I I mean I have complex PTSD from this um I have triggers daily that I I I’ve gotten

1:32:13 pretty good at recognizing and I’ve been fortunate enough to have a really amazing therapist that has helped me build tools to somatically feel those things and to process um but this is a this is I I know I can’t say this for certain but I I suspect I will be dealing this with this my whole life this isn’t just something that goes away and I think I think I think people have this idea that healing means an absence of and I think I’ve realized that healing is is that’s it’s actually the opposite healing is the presence of the presence of space the presence of tools the presence of mind the presence of um action plan because trauma doesn’t just go away you know um things that have helped me significantly um journaling I’m an avid journaler um if you don’t like journaling even just getting your phone out and recording yourself just like just a kind of a I used to call it a a soul vomit where I would just like I would write and just like get everything out of my mind those types of um

1:33:36 practices help getting into the habit or getting comfortable with asking yourself really uncomfortable questions um and I I guess what I mean by that is like what is considered Shadow work um getting to know those parts of us that we have rejected um getting to know those parts of us that we feel the most shame around and it’s very difficult this is not none of this is easy work but I promise you it is worth it um if you if you can and if you do have access to resources like therapy I know it’s really difficult I know it’s really expensive I know that it’s kind of a crapshoot if you get a good one but if you can get a good one if you can have if you do have access to it that is especially if they if they are trauma I mean hopefully they’re all trauma-formed but trauma-informed therapy um specifically with somatic therapy and like I said internal family systems which like Parts work um has been

1:34:42 so so crucial to where I am today and the practice of um of self- witnessing so something that I realized when I so I cut okay sorry I’m cutting let me myself a really big question yeah a lot of different angles to answer it from so this is great thank you of course um so when I when I cut my parents off about two years ago um what I realized what was happening was I was so I I realized that I was set in this mindset of if they don’t acknowledge it I will never move on they need to acknowledge it they need to they need to apologize they need to validate me otherwise I’m stuck and I realized how disempowering that was I realized how like that will probably never happen and getting to that point of letting that be okay was I mean it took a decade um but once I reached that point and realize that they will never they probably will never give me what I want and in reality what I do want is I need to start

1:36:09 validating that I need to start witnessing that I need to start telling myself that these things happened and that my pain is real and my pain is valid and starting these practices of of self validation and self- witnessing and like I remember the first time I like so like the pract there’s a lot of like closing your eyes and breathing and like putting your hands on your on your body on your chest just like a connective grounding practice and I remember the first time I just told myself I see you I see how much pain you’re in I see I see how how angry you are I see I just started saying things like that and I remember the first time I did that just this complete breakdown that happened and it was like I had the little me the parts of me that were you know that were abandoned the parts of me that were abused were just desperate for this and they have been screaming for this and the moment I started doing this work

1:37:16 of of a lot some people call it like reparenting some people call it like inner child work um the moment I started doing this is when things started changing for me and uh I mean anyone that’s listening that is interested in these just a quick Google search inner child work Shadow work uh internal family systems that will get you at least in the direction there are many Journal prompts um that you can start asking it’s a lot of self-work the healing parts and actually though kind of a a different avenue of healing though that I’ve experienced in the last seven months is is the healing work that happens within community and learning how to receive and learning how to be vulnerable with those around you and letting people show up for you CU I think a pretty common experience that I’ve I’ve heard from other people that have gone through immense amount of trauma is this hyper um Independence um this like avoidance of

1:38:32 relying on anyone ever um and I know that I I very much fell into that category of never wanting to be vulnerable with anyone ever yeah and realizing that it was safe like because I did these years of self- witnessing and finally being able to feel like I can open up to people that I I love and that love me um the amount of healing that happens within those spaces is just it it’s Indescribable like when you can just feel held by by your community by your by people that you love and cherish and you can be your most torn apart self and that they’ll just hold the pieces together has been just magic um all this being said it’s I mean like you like you had mentioned healing is not linear and it’s messy and it doesn’t stop I think that’s another thing at myself I have to remind myself of I’m very much like a type A achievement oriented type of person and I’m like okay well if I do all of the journal prompts and I do the ice baths and I am vegan and I run five miles and I do the

1:39:55 breathing exercises then I’ll be fixed and I think that’s like actually a form of trauma that has come out of the perfectionistic aspects of Mormonism the check boxes um so yeah healing is painful healing is messy healing is not linear it’s not a one- siiz fits-all but if I can offer any sort of guidance in terms of like directions to to head into um like I said I just inner child work internal family systems self- witnessing journaling um somatic work feeling emotions like the I don’t know if you’ve heard this or not but I remember what the first time I heard it was news to me like an emotion actually only lasts I think about 90 seconds in the body like physically and our resistance to feeling emotion is what keeps it going and as I got better and better at recognizing when I had an emotion like and being able to be like wow I’m sad and then just sitting in that wow I’m angry wow I’m you know inert emotion which is goes back to the book I had mentioned earlier non-violent

1:41:18 communication is so good at this it talks about like the difference between interpretation and and emotion so often we we say things like I feel I feel like you’re not listening but that’s not a feeling that’s an interpretation and so the the closer we can get to what we’re actually feeling and then validating that feeling I think the closer we can get to Healing beautiful and I don’t want to like scare people off but I’ve also like I’ve had had I’ve had more bad therapists than good yeah there are good therapists out there they really and I have found people that are focused on things like somatic work um which is a trauma informed type of therapy and internal family systems I I I really feel and believe um that if if those are their modalities that they’re working in um they’re probably going to be safer for people that have complex PTSD versus someone that does like CBT or any sort of like just uh speak

1:42:24 therapy um because trauma is so you can talk about trauma all day long but if if you’re not if you’re not if you’re not letting yourself feel it and process it yeah it’s you’re going to find a plateau you’re going to find at least that’s how I that’s something that I found I I reached this point where I was like I can’t I’ve intellectualized this to the upth degree I I understand this in the now out cognitively and yet I feel so stuck and it wasn’t until I started learning about sensation and and how uncomfort I I I learned that I was actually dissociating all of the time out like using like hyper like like hyper intellectualizing emotions as a form of um self soothing so I wouldn’t have to feel these emotions and unfortunately the only way out of it is through yeah so annoying yeah and I’m getting a lot of people in the comments saying wait there’s really good life coaches out there which is true uh my wife Margie’s the life coach

1:43:32 and there’s also people saying Master’s level therapists can also be fantastic which is also true um I’ll note that jod hildbrandt was a master’s level I don’t even think jod hilderbrandt was a therapist uh now that I have looked at her credentials I think it was like Edy or child she was from what I what I understand she was a um a family Family license a family what are they called she she was a therapist she she she had a master’s um but I weirdly I don’t think her Masters was in like therapy maybe she took the exam to get her therapy license but last I looked but I’m I’m getting a soft trck I apologize just F there are scientific empirically supported methods for treating therapy make sure that whoever you find use evidence-based approaches to treating trauma uh and the more experience they have the more expertise the more training the more that they’ve trained under an expert in evidence-based treatments for trauma yes likely the better treatment you’re going to get and

1:44:48 yes that can be a coach or a master level therapist but just please think of it as an expertise not as something that someone does just because they throw the word up on their website and tell you they’ve they’ve treated a lot of people with trou and I know and I know that if you have if you’ve been through a significant amount of trauma one of the things that I’m sure you’re dealing with is not being able to trust yourself and trust your intuition um but if you’re seeking out a therapist and something doesn’t feel right trust it because that that if something is coming up in a way that feels constrictive or wrong it probably is yeah um I promise you I wouldn’t keep you more than two hours so I’m gonna try and jam a few more questions in to the our time remaining I will ask everyone really quickly I don’t do sponsorships I don’t do paid ads uh other than what YouTube throws up if people just subscribe to this YouTube channel like

1:45:50 this comment on it share it and then we thank our donors that make Mormon stories possible if you want to see content like this please go to Mormon stories.org become a monthly donor that’s how we pay for all this that’s all I’ll say really quickly uh Jesse um do you want to talk really quickly I want to talk about your plans for the future at the end uh do you want it all to talk about the media coverage the news coverage any of the documentaries or are you is that something you’re not even allowed to or want to talk about is there anything you want to talk about that or even like what it’s like to be part of a global news story that’s fine too I mean the the it’s been very ineffable honestly um the nature in which this trauma happened was so was so isolating um the nature in which like the types of trauma the type of trauma that I experienced with jod was so isolating not being believed was so isolating not being validated was so

1:47:02 isolating and now because I didn’t know anyone that had gone through something like this and now the the conclusion of this has also been very isolating it’s like it’s just so bizarre like I I don’t know anyone that has gone through this type of experience of having their most vulnerable or not most personal stories and I I understand that I chose to go public I totally understand that um but to have it be just out there is just so surreal I have I’ve had I had someone recognize me at the grocery store a little while ago I’ve had people recognize me outside of like well actually one of my favorite musicians this was so crazy on New Year’s I had I went to Chicago for a show and one of my because one of my favorite musicians was playing and we were we were like all outside the venue afterwards and she was standing there and she was like why do I know you and she lives in Portland so I was like oh well I’m a tattooer I tattoo in Portland sometimes it’s you know I’ve been to a lot of your shows and she’s

1:48:15 like no that’s not it why do I know you and then it came out that she had seen like the the Hulu like me on Hulu and I was like oh my God my like favorite musician knows something so personal about me it was so surreal um but yeah it’s been um I mean I’ve I I think I can I can’t talk about like the details of it but um I mean I was on Nightline and there’s a a larger 2020 story that will be airing um I can’t say when um and then there’s a few documentaries that have reached documentarians that have reached out that I’ve um that I’ve spoke to I I’m not really sure what that’s going to look like moving forward and what I will have the capacity to participate in um I know that this isn’t going anywhere in terms of like how it affects my life I don’t know how much more like large scale conversation I have when it at least about like the specificities of what happened um I do think that I would like to continue conversations about the

1:49:32 um the culture at large how we can um what we can do like what actionable steps we can start taking towards making sure these things don’t happen I mean I know that there’s no way of completely stopping it but if there’s any step forward we can take is a good step forward and an important one um so yeah being a part of a national news story is very bizarre I don’t I mean if if you can avoid it I don’t recommend it it’s it’s very strange but obviously like I don’t I don’t I mean I don’t I don’t regret sharing my story by any means um but I also had no idea what that meant at the time I had no text for it yeah yeah how could you like I I accept offers sometimes to go on TV or documentaries or whatever but it’s only for the cause it’s it’s stressful I always hate how I come off and I don’t know it’s just something you do for the cause but I I would never call it enjoyable or something that I

1:50:43 aspire to honestly yeah yeah it’s a I mean like I said I I don’t regret it at all I don’t regret coming forward I the amount of healing that has happened in my own life and I and I hope I can only hope that my story has helped even one person yeah and I and if me coming forward if it if it supports these children in any way it’s worth it um but yeah it’s uh it’s quite the experience well we’re uh we’re all looking forward to you know those documentaries or that 2020 piece whenever it comes out just again for the cause if for nothing else but people love people find you to be very poised and articulate and intelligent and thoughtful um so I you know more more Jesse hilderbrand is good as far as our audience goes um really quickly Jesse a couple more questions what are your plans uh do you have plans has your more stories interview all the interviews from other people just this whole situation has it changed the trajectory of your life what are your plans people want to know if you are going to become a therapist people want to know if

1:52:02 you’re G to write a book what are you able to share about your plans or do you even know it’s okay to not know yeah I mean yes I mean it has completely changed my life and in in in so many ways and the trajectory I I think it I think it just the the the shaping of the trajectory has has definitely has happened um I think it’s more confirmed things for me because a lot of these things were were ideas that I have been ruminating on for a long time um but the confirmation the stories that I’ve received the feedback that I’ve received has been very affirming and confirming to me um the goal right now is I would I’m trying to start school online for the mo for like the time being um I I’m hoping to go into some form of psychology sociology Neuroscience some combination of those because as much as I am interested in individual healing and individual um work the collective the collective work I think is is equally as important and and and interesting to me um

1:53:23 specifically around these high high demand like groups and exiting Cults exiting religions um I think I may have mentioned the book before on the last time I was on but there’s this book called How Minds change by David mccraine he’s great yeah love ABS obsessed yeah and that book was I’ve I mean I’ve read all of his books and that one but that one was so humanizing in a way that I I I feel like I haven’t experienced in a while like it it it completely removes this moralistic um lens from human behavior of good and bad you know oh the people these people are bad these people are good and just shows like really the lack of um or how complex our choices and decisions and how little control we have or free like how little like agency we have in a lot of ways um but how important also that that book goes into showing how important outgroup empathy is and how important especially as we come we become more and more polarized

1:54:38 how offering a hand to people that are that think differently than us and I know that is difficult is so so difficult um but as the only as far as far as I can as far as I gather from this book in books like it is the only way to actually like bring people over and I think about I actually think about this a lot um when I when I consider who I was when I first left the church when I consider the thoughts and the behaviors and the beliefs that I had when I left it’s embarrassing it’s it’s like I’m so grateful that I don’t have like social media back then in in the way that we do now of having everything documented and I am so grateful for my friends that were so patient with me and so loving and so and and loving in in a way that both felt safe and challenging there is this one person Brett Barrett I I mean I feel like if it wasn’t for him I would not be the person I am today and he was so willing to sit down with me and challenge me in a such

1:55:55 a kind and soft Gentle Way and gave me books and resources and and let me have my terrible takes and then kind of sent me on with like a new way of thinking about things if it wasn’t for people like him I wouldn’t be here I wouldn’t be in this position of who I am today it’s a scary thought to think about who I would be and so thinking about um the forms of therapy and the forms of of and the types of conversations I want to be having moving forward it’s it’s those types of conversations how do we Bridge gaps how do we bridge this Mass polarization that’s happening um and how do we how do we use ethical ethical persuasive techniques like deep canvasing to help people come to those conclusions and and um come to better conclusions it’s a great book um how Minds change U Mormons ex Mormon should read it for sure yes because there are more and less effective ways to talk to your believing family and friends and we always want to be effective uh and not

1:57:07 and Do no harm okay so Jesse you do plan on pursuing a a a therapy lure did I hear that right uh yeah I mean potentially I don’t know in what direction I’m going to go I want the goal is to just start okay because I have no credits and so I like I just want to start the process time’s going to pass anyways so I want to start the process if that leads me to being a licensed therapist and working in like a clinical setting wonderful if that leads to more like research-based work also wonderful um but just as of right now that’s that is where I I would like to go and like my job as a tattooer there is a lot of therapeutic kind of work that happens like obviously I know I’m not a therapist and there’s have you have you ever been tattooed have you had that experience before no but I have made the promise that if I do get tattooed that’s right so there’s a so in the experience of getting tattooed there’s I mean there’s so much trust

1:58:19 there is a um it’s so intimate it’s so vulnerable you are putting your physical the permanence of your physical being in the hands of this person um and there’s something about not only touching someone but hurting I mean it’s painful that just breaks this breaks the ice and like forms a connection in ways that not many other things do and so I’m with people for hours and I get to hear so many like so much of their story and usually there’s a reason they’re getting the tattoo or why they’re in town or where they’re from and like there’s the amount of connection and bonding that I get to experience on a daily basis is just so incredible it’s my favorite part of my job like truly if I had if I woke up tomorrow and I physically couldn’t tat to the thing that would be the hardest is is losing that ability to connect with people that way so I think that desire for like being in The Healing Arts has it’s been there for a long time um so like getting a degree in

1:59:29 that way just feels like a natural extension of that okay and are are you starting with undergrad then and yeah okay so you’re you’re the undergrad phase yeah that’s that’s awesome well we wish you luck and and I’m sure there’s lots of people that want to support you in whatever way they can we’ll get to that what some people people are saying they would love you to give a TED Talk not that it’s giving you assignments others are saying they would love to I’m sure that there would be some agents out there that would love to shop a memoir around have you where where are you thinking about these days on things like a book or a TED Talk I mean the the idea of like having something of value to say to like warrant to Ted Talk is very wild to yeah about um if I that’s so funny um um in terms of a book I I mean that is definitely something that I I think I would like to do in the future I don’t really know what the nature of that book would be if that

2:00:38 would be surrounding my experience with jod if it would be more of like a fictionalized um kind of memoir novel kind of story if it would be nothing even related to that and more about just like um the work that I want to do in regards to um in in regards to Healing from severe trauma um I don’t know what that would look like but that is definitely something that I would like to do okay that’s good to hear um and Ted Talks are easier than books I I I’ve done a TED talk I’ve not been able to do a book just so you know TED Talks are easier than books I don’t there’s something about a TED Talk that just sounds like oh no only like famous people do tet talks only like people that have something to say do tet talks like not little me like for sure you could get Ted Talk especially if you do tedex tedex is like with the local University or oh yeah like University of Utah Utah State you know I’m sure University of Washington has a Ted a tedex kind of thing so you can start at

2:01:42 a Ted X and then graduate to a TED talk but you’d be fantastic but that’s totally up to you um I will ask this just because it’s what I you know realm I care about are you open to or have you considered like a YouTube channel like interviewing people like we do on Mormon stories or just you know talking about uh what you learned kind of like I’m Jesse I’m pursuing The Healing Arts and mental health come along with me on the ride as I learn and as I as I as I progress into hopefully a therapist someday or or something like it if you thought about a YouTube channel I have yes I um it’s it’s it’s pretty scary to think about and exciting at the same time I mean these are the like these are the types of conversations that I really want to I really want to start having um I don’t know if it’s like if me hosting it is the way or if I like find people that are already having these conversations and join the conversation um I think there’s a little bit of

2:02:52 imposter syndrome of like all of the healing I’ve done has been very much just trial and error and so and not having any sort of CR I mean I’m a high school dropout like and I know that intellect and educa I know that they that doesn’t I cognitively understand that doesn’t mean anything but it there is like a level of insecurity around that um and so like having I credentials and having at least starting that path I think I would feel a little bit more um inclined or like like able to have those conversations yeah well uh I’m not gonna push you at all however if um you know if you ever do want to start a YouTube channel I I know I’d love to support that and I know there’s a lot of people who would step up to support you so you you decide whatever feels right to you just know that I others would would love to support you in any way we can well there is I haven’t said anything yet and I probably won’t say anything for a little while but there is potentially some pretty big shifts happening in my life in the next six

2:04:06 months and so I’m trying to like let those things settle before making any sort of decisions on on that but I do see myself having some sort of platform and of of talk like having conversations with people because I know that there are so many people out there that have these ideas and either are a part of the conversation already or want to be a part of the conversation and I think that the more and more we normalize these types of conversations um the more effective and like the the faster we can get our message out of of healing and love and you know just like healing from these from these atrocities yeah yeah yeah absolutely well my daughter Maya um is she she has lots and lots of tattoos and she adores you and your voice and uh it’s not often that what I do on my podcast really reaches my kids but Maya was very grateful that I helped introduce her to you and now she follows you uh and it’s because she finds you wise so I’m sure a lot of other people

2:05:11 will so I’m grateful to know there may be a platform in your future well thank you that means much okay well I promis to keep you to two hours but I do want to end by plugging uh by plugging you like last time I’m going to just quickly share your venmo John Jesse Tater right it’s j SSI t a t t o o e r is that right yes and is that also your your uh that’s your that’s your Instagram as well is that right yes okay all right and uh really quickly how was Europe do you have any tips on while people are um taking advantage of uh of that venmo share uh really quickly how was Europe Europe was amazing what were some highlights I mean it was I mean everything every part of my trip was just magic there was so much serum ipity there was so much connection I was able two of my best friends flew out for my birthday and then we met more of our friends in um this place called the hag in the Netherlands for a music festival and I was able to see so many of my

2:06:31 friends bands play and then we all went rock climbing and then just the museums and I lowkey fell in love and so it’s just it’s been it was just it was magic and people that were listening helped make that possible and so truly from the bottom of my heart I I have thank you and just continuously humbled by this what what countries are you are you comfortable sharing what countries you visited yeah so in the UK I just I went to London and then London and bath and then I was in Berlin and I was in um Amsterdam einhoven the ha Bordeaux Paris and I was in but I was in Berlin twice and I was in London twice yeah I think that’s everything for this trip that’s called travel therapy that’s what that yes travel therap and I’ll be back I’m actually going back to Berlin in like nine days for a week and then I’ll be back and then I’m gonna be back in May for a tattoo convention called true blue so if anyone is in Europe and wants to get tattooed you

2:07:48 should let me know because I’d love to what is your tattoo shop in Seattle if you want to let people know yeah definitely um it’s called electric Cobra um we are located in Columbia City in Seattle um it’s just electric Cobra tattoo par parlor but it’s like fancy parlor spelling um yeah I would I would love to tattoo if anyone is in town or um is around and wants to get tattooed I would absolutely love that all right and the Instagram is Jesse Tater J SSI t a t t o o e r and that’s both the venmo and the Instagram um what’s wrong with that oh it’s no nothing thank you thank oh yeah of course and thanks to all the viewers and listeners that support Jesse uh Jesse deserves our support um the book that Jesse’s been holding up again for for those who didn’t see it it’s called recovering agency I’ll I’ll show recovering agency by Luna Lindsay um lifting the veil of Mormon mind control you can check out I believe yeah Thumbs Up by Jesse you can check out the

2:09:04 five-part I believe series we have on Mormon stories podcast with Luna uh Lindsay they’re fantastic uh you mentioned so many books I think I’m sure uh that Julia is going to be listing those books and resources in the show notes along with the time codes um so thanks to to Julia and and Maven for moderating the chats as always herard for the thumbnails all the Mormon story staff thanks to all the donors that make this podcast possible you can become a donor at mormonstories.org if you want to um see this program continue Jesse I want to give you the chance to give any final words of Hope or advice or perspective or condemnation whatever whatever you want to say to to conclude the floor is now yours just thank you truly everyone that I had no I had no clue what going on this podcast was going to be like and what the the reactions were going to be I had no context for it and just completely changed my life and changed I mean you changed so much and in in terms of of of

2:10:20 Hope um embrace the joy as much like embrace the pain and embrace the joy because they go together and don’t block your joy because you are also in pain I know that it’s really easy to do that but the more and more that we allow ourselves to feel Joy the the less that they win so beautiful beautiful and uh and I guess the final sentencing of jod and Ruby is still to come yeah that story is not yet written so I mean at some point if if you if you have any final or or additional updates we’d love to have you back but I’m sure there’s at some point You’re Gonna Want to Leave the story behind you too so yeah I mean I’m I’m hoping that the next time we talk about the sentencing that it’s a a really positive conversation a very short and very you know I hope that I hope that there’s not going to be a lot to say about it that it’s just going to be like okay Justice is served um I have to ask this question because it’s from a friend this will be my last question my friend Lauren Johnson Maas from uh hidden True Crime

2:11:35 podcast she’s a legend her and her husband Dr John are amazing they do great work they’ve covered your story I don’t know if you know Lauren or hidden True Crime but they check them out uh listeners and just as well if you don’t um but but Lauren asked me to ask you this um Ruby apologized to Pam during her sentencing statement but Jesse told KUTV that Pam was Jody’s best friend and that Pam was the president of connections I don’t even know Jesse if any of this means anything to you but Lauren wanted me to ask if you had any thoughts on Ruby’s apology to Pam which is kind of a geeky question but uh you know I thought I I love Lauren so I’m gonna ask um I actually don’t remember the part about Pam I mean I know Pam and I have very strong feelings about Pam and I they’re not and not positive feelings um so I I guess I I I I think I missed the part about Pam um in the in the apology oh yeah I I think it I think it may have just been like

2:12:48 Thank you Pam for your support or you know that that sort of thing I mean I have think in my experience with Pam uh I mean she was very she saw the abuse that was going on in my life with me and other people in at the hands of Jodie and she was very much a part of Jody’s inner workings and inner worlds and made a lot of things possible I have nothing nothing good to say about Pam okay okay so if uh if Jody um if Ruby’s apologizing to Pam that probably isn’t feeling super good no not not not great okay all right well I don’t mean to end on a downer this has been something uplifting episode but I love Lauren so I had to ask Lauren’s question no I I understand okay all right well Jesse hilderbrandt you’re the best we’re so thank you for coming on Mormon stories thank you for your courage Your Grace your wisdom your intelligence and uh and for all the good that’s going to come in the future we wish you so

2:13:54 much luck and uh we we got your back and you’re always welcome here on Mormon stories thank you so much I appreciate you having me all right now you go have a good relax whatever you do to relax and to chill out and heal yes I’m gonna make soup and I’m gonna eat bagel and I’m GNA go to sleep and it’s gonna be great all right thanks Jesse H you take care too all right thanks everyone for joining us to our Morman stories we really appreciate the support again please uh thanks if you donate to us and if you um want to support the program please go to Mormon stories.org and become a monthly donor thanks to everyone who makes this possible please subscribe to Mormon stories podcast on YouTube and Facebook please like and share this episode please spread the word and um thanks to everyone for your support we’ll have lots of good shows in the weeks and months ahead be good to each other be kind to each other we’ll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon stories podcast and check out we’ll let you know when

2:14:54 anything good comes out about Jesse we’ll make sure to let you know on the podcast as well thanks everybody uh everyone take care