Source: Mormonism’s Mountain Meadows Massacre Channel: Mormon Discussion Inc. Published: April 22, 2026 | Archived: April 23, 2026

Video: Mormonism’s Mountain Meadows Massacre
Channel: Mormon Discussion Inc.
Published: April 22, 2026
Duration: 3:05:22
Views: 3,569
Category: Comedy
Video ID: Kt7-xLnuJWQ

Description

Tonight, one of the darkest chapters in Mormon history—the Mountain Meadows Massacre. This isn’t a surface-level retelling. We walk through what led up to it, how it unfolded, and what happened afterward… and we let the historical record speak for itself.

We examine the environment in southern Utah at the time—heightened fear, isolation, and rhetoric that blurred the line between obedience to leaders and loyalty to God. We talk about the Baker–Fancher wagon train, why they were targeted, and how a situation that could have ended peacefully turned into something far worse.

We break down the massacre itself—how the militia gained the trust of the emigrants, what happened when they were escorted out under a white flag, and how the attack was carried out. We also cover what followed: the children who were spared and placed into Mormon homes, the removal and redistribution of property, and the long effort to control the narrative.

We dig into the aftermath—the oath-like silence described by participants, the blaming of Native Americans, and the later statements by leaders that don’t quite line up with what we now know. We’ll also talk about the monument, its destruction, and the unsettling details surrounding that.

This episode isn’t about sensationalism. It’s about understanding how something like this happens—inside a system that believes it is acting under divine authority.

In this episode: The climate in Utah leading up to 1857 Brigham Young’s rhetoric and its impact The Baker–Fancher party and why they were targeted How the massacre unfolded The fate of the children and survivors The cover-up and shifting of blame The role of John D. Lee and others The long road to accountability

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Need help navigating religious deconstruction? If you’re working through spiritual trauma or faith transition, 1-on-1 coaching and support groups are available at: https://awakenandthrive.org/

Join the conversation What stood out to you most about this story? Drop your thoughts in the comments.

Transcript — YouTube panel (human-authored)

0:01 Welcome everybody to another episode of Mormonism Live. I’m your host Bill Real with my co-host Radio Free Mormon. Here we are tonight. It’s Wednesday night, 6 p.m. April 22nd. And uh what we wanted to talk about tonight is the Mountain Meadows Massacre. I’ve been preparing this for a while. I actually went out to Mountain Meadows today, RFM, and walked around. Uh I’d been out there once before. I know you’ve been there before, too. And we’ve got a video from you on your time out there. I went out there today and I actually saw a few more of the sites than I saw the first time. I saw the overlook and uh but I didn’t go down to see the main memorial uh the men and women’s uh the men and boys and the women and children’s memorial and I went and saw those and uh the execution site of uh John D.

0:47 and took pictures of things and and if we have time, we’ll get to some of those later. But I just want to note here on on my screen, you’re not seeing it yet. But one of the darkest events in early Mormon history is the Mountain Meadows Massacre. September 11th, the first 9/11, September 11th of 1857. It happens from September 7th through the 11th in Southern Utah. a group of immigrants known as the Baker Fans Party were traveling through the Utah territory on their way to California and they never made it. And this is a a big moment in Mormon history. Uh there’s a lot of things that go into this conversation and I think we’ll just jump into it. I think they’ll naturally come out along the way. So, I’m just going to uh change the screen, but I do want to check in as I’m doing that. How are you doing this evening? and any thoughts from you before we embark on taking a deep dive into the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

1:39 I will have a story to tell you about the first time I read about the Mountain Meadows Massacre itself toward the end of uh the famous book by Wanita Brooks. So, and that was about 25 years ago or so. I was around 40. But that made a huge impression on me. I’ll tell you that story here in a bit. I will tell you this though that I do recall joining the church when I was 18 years old. This is back in 1978.

2:07 And you know how occasionally you’ll be in the hallway, you’ll be talking with some other people or maybe approaching some other people who are talking and whispers and you hear things. And one of the things that I distinctly remember hearing and I think more than once was this thing called the Mountain Meadows Massacre, which sounds kind of disturbing just on its face. You got the Mountain Meadows, which is all nice and beautiful and lovely and then massacre.

2:40 Wow. What could that be about? And I had also heard that the Mormons got blamed for it, but it was really the Indians that I also heard. So that is as much as I knew about the Mountain Meadows massacre for my attendance at church and it was in the hallway, not in the classroom. Yeah, it is an interesting thing how the apologetic naive responses often make you know the the temple endowment goes back to the temple of Solomon for instance that there are these easy apologetic answers the we did polygamy because there were way more women on the tre west than men right uh so we tell these stories especially when people are new in the church or they’re not that informed and and they perpetuate um but tonight we’re going to dive into the story and I think we’ve got tons of good documents, tons of good history and uh we’ll see where this goes. So, here’s the thumbnail for tonight.

3:41 Uh that was the little part I just read. You’ve got the Baker Fenture party there, just an AI uh rendition of that. But I wanted to start off talking about setting the stage with violent theology. And we’ll get to whether Brigham Young his involvement again most people who are now intimately familiar with Mormonism in this space who listen to podcasts and are reading books this historical event uh this moment in Mormon history has been talked about numerous times. Um I think tonight we’ll do it a little differently. I think it’s absolutely worthwhile. I think you’ll learn new things. Um, but there’s often the the story centers around whether Brigham Young was involved or not. The the apologist wants this to just be some rogue LDS members and the critic wants Brigham Young to have ordered the massacre to have happened. They want to pin it uh at the feet of him. And the the issue is way more complex than either of those two extremes. And there’s so much information in the middle and and I think once you

4:48 understand the full story I think there’s still some reckoning to do uh for all of us to to recognize what kind of what in our society or what in a group or what in a religious social circle leads to religious fanaticism to the extent where a group of human beings. It’s one thing to have, you know, Ted Bundy be a serial killer and go out and kill. It’s another thing to have the the the father uh son, I don’t know if he was his biological son or not, but father son combo in Virginia who were uh acting as snipers at some point a decade and a half ago or so. And you you get a person or two, the Oklahoma City bombing, you get a a person or two who can commit to doing atrocious acts. But I think it is it is psychological.

5:39 There is psychological uh interesting things happening when you get these moments in human history where a group of humans because of a religious belief go to the extreme of causing uh extreme violence and murdering people. Um any thoughts there and then otherwise I’ll jump into some of the theology here. No, you’re you’re absolutely right and I think this has been remarked on at least I think I remember reading about it a number of years ago that this is not something that is the only time it happened. There are other massacres that happen. But one of the things that this book was looking at was a collection, a small collection of these massacres that happened by people with no prior criminal history or subsequent criminal history that they live their lives in always as an upstanding member of society according to, you know, the laws that they believe they were subject to.

6:32 And there’s nothing remarkable about these people. If it were not for their involvement in this particular massacre, we wouldn’t even I wouldn’t even know their names. Yeah, I even went into Chat GPT early today as I was on my way back from the Mountain Meadows massacre uh site and I I asked it. I said, “What other events are similar where a group of people commit violence under some extreme belief?” Uh the Monster Rebellion, it named it said the Salem Witch Trials. Uh St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre. This was where thousands of Protestants were killed by Catholics amid political and religious tension. The Taiping Rebellion, the Ghost Dance Movement and Wounded Knee, uh the Darius Sin Massacre, Jonestown Massacre, Branch Devidian’s Waco siege, Lord’s Resistance Army atrocities, and then ISIS Yazidi genocide. And again, I might pronounce some of those words wrong, but at least some of those should ring a bell and and and be interesting, uh, as we try to make some connections.

7:41 So, uh, setting the stage with violent theology, I’ll just turn it here. In 1856, Brigham Young taught that covenant breaking could require a person’s own blood. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out. Your own blood must atone for it, Young said. That same year, he also preached that some sins must be atoned for by the blood of the man. And in that sermon, he offered a hypothetical that treats lethal violence as justified in a sexual transgression. We’ll talk about that one here in just a second on the next slide. Language that at a minimum normalizes the idea that killing can function as moral repair. I I want to get your thoughts. I mean, Brigham Young taught violence and gave his sermons in violent rhetoric on more than one occasion.

8:36 um your I guess maybe your thoughts when when you were early in the church. It seems like at almost at all cost everybody wants to avoid you understanding the extreme unhealthy rhetoric and teachings of Brigham Young in multiple places but tonight we’ll focus on the violence. Any thoughts from you on on Brigham Y Young leaving Nauvoo? Joseph Smith is martyed. The saints are persecuted for sure and they’re persecuting others to a much larger extent than we used to talk about in the church or do even to this day.

9:16 Your thoughts on Brigham Y. Young, the violent rhetoric he used and maybe your perception early on in your time in the church and how you’ve come to understand who Brigham Y Young is. Okay, let me start off with the order in which you asked those there at the end. Um, this is very problematic. All right. There’s no evidence, convincing evidence, at least to me, that he ordered the attack at Mountain Meadows. Although the man killed Joseph Smith, why would we put it past him to order the settlers be killed? Right, Bill? Right. That’s a joke.

9:56 Okay. Want to make sure everybody knew that was a joke. Yeah. I don’t think that he had Joseph Smith murdered. Now we’ve got John Taylor and Willard Richards involved and there we go. Yes, they were both there at the Mountain Meadows Massacre as well. Little known fact. Anyway, all I’m saying is that when you I know it’s the Wild West. I know things are rough and I know that it’s a different time and day.

10:21 But when you are the leader of some people, you have to be very careful about what you say to the people, lest it be taken from you as their leader as an excuse for violence. Elder Holland in the musket speech. Yes. Yeah. Yes. He should have rethought that. And that was really the problem is that when you’re a leader, if you if you were I say that, I wouldn’t even say it because I got a podcast now. But before the podcast time, if I say something, you know, it’s no big deal because I don’t have any followers or people who might be looking for messages from me as to how they should conduct their lives. I I hope you’re not doing that now. But you know, when you’re a leader in the church, that’s how people look at you.

11:13 And if you give this kind of violent rhetoric, you are giving them license to enact the violence that they already may be contemplating instead of holding on to it and not doing it because your leader tells you don’t. And you’ve already got secret organizations, the Danites for instance, where you have these groups who work in the shadows. Uh we’ll get to this in a moment, but your religious leaders are also your government leaders are also your militia leaders. You you have set up a theocratic system by which people are instructed that they are to commit violence on your behalf if you order it. And now here you are teaching blood atonement and other other violent things that and then you’re like, “Oh, I can’t believe they went that far.” Well, really, you really can’t believe they went that far when you’ve created the Danites. Uh you’ve talked about blood atonement. You’ve suggested extreme measures of violence in uh certain cases.

12:19 Anyway, continue. Yeah, I was going to actually I I don’t know enough about it. Maybe somebody in the live chat can help me out. Uh, what’s the what’s the expression by the king? And who was the king? I can’t remember, but will no one rid me of this pestilent or some other unusual word? This pestilent priest and um, you know, and somebody heard it and u I think it was William Herd, the actor who’s played it. It’s a man for all seasons, isn’t it? And um, and he goes and kills him because he got the message. He understood what he was saying. And it happens in what uh at the end of Richard II think too with different people. I mean this is a common theme that the person who’s in charge says something which is ambiguous then the person who hears it goes out and does it and then they come back and expect to get accolades at least at the end of Richard second and instead they get punished.

13:16 Yeah. Anything else you want to say here? Are there I know there are several things I have I’m so sorry we got to get to this but you know when I got back from my mission and I’m studying and everything and I’m reading everything I can and learning about all the doctrines in the church and uh then I’m getting into the deep doctrine. This is the deep doctrine by the way which is blood atonement which there are some sins that are so serious that the blood of Christ will not cover them and you have to atone them by shedding your own blood which finds support at least according to the Mormons in the New Testament where it talks about a sin that is unforgivable and that gets recapitulated I think in section 132 in this world or in the world to come cannot be forgiven. Nope wouldn’t be prudent. So, you don’t want to do that. But if you do, the only way to be forgiven of it, because there is a way,

14:08 there is a way, and that’s to have your blood shed in this life. Yeah. And it’s a thing that when I discovered it and studied it and learn about this, I’m feeling special because I know about this. And I know that the average Mormon doesn’t. And it seems weird a little at first, but dang. I mean, what else is the unforgivable sin if it’s not, you know, murder? Yeah. And and on top of that, we Mor again, milk before meat, pearls before swine, when we’re early on in the church, sometime very quickly in Christianity too generally, for sure.

14:54 But in Mormonism, there is this focus on the uh on Abraham uh taking Isaac up on the mount and being commanded to sacrifice him. And all of us learning in our Sunday school manuals that this is about obedience. This is about your brain tells you that something is wrong and crazy, but you should still listen to the prophet and the Holy Ghost. And so you’re prepped with stories like that, Laben and Nephi, where murder is on the books. It it might seem extreme for you, but trust your priesthood authorities.

15:34 And if you if murder is the instruction, then murder it is. Looks like meat’s back on the menu, boys. Yeah. Yeah. But it is a possibility, right? It is a tool in the tool belt. So, let’s go ahead and uh there’s there’s so much background for this. But I I love the way you’ve got this set out. that’s going to touch on each of the important issues and not go into super depth on any of them but to give an overview that I think really puts it in good perspective.

16:04 Yeah, we’ll try to move quickly through much of this. We’ll try to stop and slow down where needed. All right, so in this next slide, this is so in the previous one you see in the right hand side, this is the talk that Brigham Young gave on March 16th, 18 56 I think 56. Okay. a year before the Mountain Meadows massacre. Yeah, and by the way, that’s important context. Thank you very much. And on the next slide here is the section of the talk for from which this violent rhetoric comes. Most of us who have delved into Mormonism long enough know this one. This is where Brigham Young condones that if he were to catch his wife in an affair sleeping with someone, he considers that he would be justified and that it would atone for their sins if he were to take a javelin and pierce both their hearts with it. Um, and he goes, I would do it with clean hands, but you who trifle with your covenants, be careful, lest in judging you will be judged. So, it’s like I would do it, but you probably should think about it

17:07 before you do it. Um, and then on the right there, there is not a man or woman who violates the covenants made with their God that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out. Your own blood must atone for it. Um, so there you get blood atonement. I like the part in there where he says about his wife, “I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart.”

17:34 Yeah. And he says he would do it with clean hands. That’s how it reads. That’s what he said. I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart. Wow. And think about what that’s conveying. I mean, for the audience, think about that. Brigham Young. Young is instructing in a sermon that when you catch your fellow brother or sister committing a sin which is so offensive to God, it might be necessary for you to kill them in order for them to atone for their sins. Now, all you’re doing is you’re putting that thought in their head. You’ve got Nephi and Laban. You’ve got Abraham and Isaac.

18:20 You’ve got uh secret oaths and covenants. You’ve got the vengeance oath that’s taking place in the temple. You get so many moments in Mormonism where you kind of know, again, I early on in my time in the church, I kind of knew if I was required to do something that felt against my morals and ethics, my job was to be obedient and do the thing I was told to do and suffer any ignominy or humiliation, no matter how severe, at the hands of church leaders. and you take it and you smile and say, “Thank you, sir.”

19:01 Yeah. Mormonism teaches you that. Uh here’s another one. Uh this was September 21st, 1856. I think this is a different sermon than the other one, wasn’t it? Yeah, that’s March 16th. So, here we are again, a year before another sermon. I I’ll just note here on the right there there are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world or in that which is to come. And if they had their eyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilled upon the ground that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins and the smoking incense would atone for their sins. Whereas if such is not the case, they will stick to them and remain upon them in the spirit world. You’re doing them a favor. Yeah.

19:56 Yeah. I know when you hear my brethren telling about cutting people off from the earth that you consider it strong doctrine, but it is to save them, not to destroy them. Brighgam seems to be saying, “If you’ve heard whispers of us killing people, of us cutting people off from the earth, you might consider it strong doctrine, but it is to save them, not to destroy them.” Now, you could say, “Oh, he’s talking about excommunication.” Well, this comes in the paragraph after he teaches blood atonement.

20:35 I mean, how different is this really from Chad Del and Lorie Valow and all this crazy visions of glory stuff about degrees of light and dark and if you have have too much dark then you’re possessed and you have to be dispatched, killed, murdered. What he’s saying is if you do something that’s so bad that Jesus’s atonement doesn’t cover it, and guess who gets to decide that, by the way?

21:05 That would be Brigham Then not only are you justified in killing them, you are doing them a favor because that’s the only way now that they can make it to the celestial kingdom is for you to murder them. Yeah. And you can just look around at breakoff groups who have a stronger allegiance to pre manifesto theology. And you can see the, you know, again, under the banner of heaven, the Lungrens, and there are these instances in Mormon history where people take blood atonement very seriously. And by the way, Brigham Young is taking blood atonement very seriously. I put down here once leaders define a category of people as existential threats, outsiders, enemies, traitors, and once violence is framed as spiritually res restorative or divinely endorsed, the remaining barrier is usually not conscience.

22:12 It’s coordination. because you’ve already agreed to set aside your own intuition and your own gut feelings about things and now your job is to be obedient. Is this not similar to what was done with adultery? And by adultery, I mean plural marriage. Men or a man want to have sex with many women or women to whom he’s not married. And therefore we have a doctrine that will justify that and make it holy before the Lord. In fact, it makes it a requirement for the highest degree of exaltation to enter into this polygamy which was the original celestial marriage. As you know, Bill, aren’t they doing the same thing here? That the another impulse that we have as human beings is to want to kill somebody from time to time and we restrain ourselves for some reason or other. But what this is saying is not only is it right, it’s just and it’s true. And you will do this if you really love this person. So it allows you to say, “I love this person and that’s why I’m killing them. That’s

23:24 why I get to give in to this base impulse.“ Yeah. We often say that God made man in his image. And I often turn that around uh and notice that often it’s man making God in his image. These are not good images. No. But but religion does this often. Again, religion gives us good morals at times too. It gives us healthy ways to respond to things happening in our life. For sure. But it also throughout the scriptures there are uh there are so many moments as you point out there are so many moments where whatever our base unhealthy natural man inclinations are at times there are there’s plenty of examples in the scriptures of giving those uh approval and endorsing them by saying that God is also okay with those things genocide and rape and other things. It is really striking me now, and I don’t know why now, but I’m glad it is, that this is so much worse than Abraham and Isaac. This is so much worse

24:32 than Nephi and Laban. With Nephi and Laban, there’s a practicality to it that we understand, even though we may not agree with, there’s a balancing of interests going on between this man’s life and his property versus this entire civilization, right? and how they’re going to dwindle and perish in unbelief and all that stuff that was taken from John. So, but this is not that. This is so much worse.

25:03 This is so evil. This isn’t practicality. This isn’t pragmatism. This isn’t a balancing of interests. This is saying if someone that you want to kill, I mean, just go ahead and kill them. And you can justify it under brotherly love. You’re doing them a favor. And and what is Brigham Young feeling in the moment he walks in on it? You know, jealousy, retribution, revenge. These are the kinds of emotions that these kind this kind of theology justifies and allows you to get away from without handling in a responsible way.

25:41 Um. Yes. And then the the father of his wife that he puts a javelin through, what does he do to bring him? Say that again. I’m sorry. I’m just have I was referencing how these things tend to continue to proliferate. It was like I think Gandhi said that uh an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Yeah. And I was talking about the father of Brigham Young. Young’s wife who puts a javelin through her. She doesn’t exist in isolation. There are other people who care about her. And what are they going to do in response to that? And then the javelins start flying. I was thinking this too. You know, again, Mormons turn to the Book of Mormon and they use the scripture where Nephi says, “I liken the scriptures unto myself.” Well, if you do that, then when you when you when you have a lesson on Abraham and Isaac, maybe you ought to take 10 minutes and help the class see that moment from Isaac’s perspective and the trauma he’s

26:36 enduring so that Abraham can pass a test. Yeah. All right, let me move on here. Uh, I’m so sorry. I wanted to mention this because I noticed I’m going to make this really quick, Bill. Really? Where where Brigham saying, I know when you hear my brethren telling about people cutting people off from the earth. Cutting people off. I knew the reference he was going from. It’s from the book of Galatians in the New Testament because that’s where it says Galatians 5:12. I would they were even cut off which trouble you. Now this is a remarkable passage because I know that the majority consensus is that that means that they would this is about the subject of circumcision and these people are saying you have to be circumcised in order to uh be a good Christian and Paul is saying I wish those people would just go all the way and cut their whole unit off. Okay, that’s what the majority of scholars believe this means at this point. and I looked it up to see the different uh interpretations of it. Now,

27:42 notice what Brigham Young’s doing with it. I would that you were cut off, that they were even cut off would trouble you. He’s using that as to be cut off from this earth to be killed, to be murdered. And all I’m going to say is that Galatians 5:12, there’s 1 2 3 4 five different that come up. The first one is the literal meaning, castration, historical illusion, metaphorical meaning, spiritual consequences, theological contrast.

28:11 Absolutely none of these interpretations have to do with actually killing somebody. Yeah. But you look at Paul taking the scripture, the theology further and then Brigham comes along and takes it even further yet. Yes. Yeah. So apparently Brigham is the only person who’s ever thought that this meant to kill somebody. Yeah. And then I mentioned this earlier. I you know Mormonism had a blended authority approach and and I think in society one function in our country of separation of church and state is you get some checks and balances that don’t allow generally don’t allow somebody to be operating in all these spheres at the same time and be able to turn theology into government into militia action. Now again, it happens for sure. We’re not completely separate even in this country.

29:11 But think about it from the early Mormonism perspective. Church equals state equals militia. The same men often functioned as ecclesiastical leaders. Those men functioned also as civil officials who also functioned as militia officers. Those in charge carried spiritual, governmental, and military authority. How do you ever disscent against that? You can’t. You are getting hit from all three parts of your society in such a way for you to stand up and go, you’re wrong. What you’re doing is wrong. I’m I’m not going to do that. You guys You guys should not be doing that.

29:56 It would take such courage and uh brazeness to push against that. Now, some did for sure, but it makes it a much bigger uphill battle than in a standard society that is separated in ways that you would rarely find an entire group of people feeling uh filling the leadership at all three levels of society. Um so, just to note that. Okay, there’s that. So, now we get into the Baker Fans party. And uh I just want to make a note here. The Encyclopedia of Arkansas places the Baker Fanter departure near Harrison, Arkansas in April uh of 1857 and describes a migration of roughly 120 to 150 people. Counts vary and they counts vary because one, we can’t exactly be sure. We we know certain groups took off at a certain moment and then others started later and then along the way people joined up with other parties to create a bigger group so that they could stand up to some of the threats or harsh things going on in the environment. And so we

31:10 we recognize that again later on in their journey west that it was eventually called the Baker Fenture party because they had consolidated partway into the journey. There was the Baker group, there’s the Fanter group, but by the end they had uh grouped up together and so we called them the Faker banter Baker Fanser party. Uh, but again, they left Arkansas in April of 1857. Um, and I’ve got a little thing up there. The the Encyclopedia of Arkansas, uh, is where that information came from.

31:47 So, you can see that on the screen, and I’ve got a map there just so you can see the distance from Utah as they made their way to California. I kind of like I kind of like Faker Banter party. The Faker Banter. Yes, I like it. I think I said that once. All right. So uh and then I just want to note so much good information comes from this document that was uh was the special report done by the military personnel and others who went out and collected witness statements both places the Baker Fans party had been to see what kind of im uh immigrant group they were whether they were trustworthy or not whether they were prone to violence. or not. So, we get testimony in this document about who these people are. For instance, right here, uh, so this is special report of the Mountain Meadow Massacre by JH Carlton, Brevitt Major, United States Army Captain First Draons.

32:48 Brevitt Major, JH Carlton, gathering secondhand but early testimony, described the company as respectable, quiet, and comparatively well equipped. Now, the only way he would know that is to talk to other places they had stopped along the way and getting feedback from those who had had interactions with them about what can you tell me about this group. Um, they were well equipped with multiple wagons, tents, and women, and many children, reinforcing that this wasn’t a lone band of armed men spoiling for a fight. Again, the Mormon story we get told is that there’s these rumors that these are the men who killed Joseph Smith. By the way, can you if you just sit in real time and think about that, that is such an absurd story.

33:39 There’s zero reason to give any credibility as a Mormon outside of persecution complex. There’s no reason to go, “That makes sense. That seems rational.” I mean, they start from Arkansas. It’s obviously a group of immigration folks, men, women, and children. Um, it it just doesn’t even have the appearance in any way of looking like those people. Here’s where they really stick their foot in it as far as the Mormons who are making up the story, which is they come up with these stories. You mentioned one that they’re bragging about how they killed Joseph Smith. haha as they’re coming through and all this stuff and getting the the Mormons all riled up at them, right?

34:24 Why do you have to come up with a story to explain why it is that you’re angry at these people if the other part of your story is you didn’t have anything to do with killing him, right? You have a you have an excuse for both sides, don’t you? You you’re ready no matter what direction this goes. It seems that okay, look, if I’m making up the story, I would say, well, no, I wasn’t mad at them at all. They came through, everything was fine.

34:53 In other words, I don’t have any motive to kill them. What they’re doing is making up stories and creating a motive for the Mormons to kill them, which they’re denying having done. Yeah. And you’ll see more of these kinds of stories as we go along the way. So all I’m noting here again, the Baker Fanser party are good people who are just trying to make their way to California to start off their their new life. And tons of information can be had about the Mountain Meadows massacre from this document, this special report of the Mountain Meadow Massacre by JH Carlton, Brevitt Major.

35:30 And I read the entirety of it today. I just wanted to let you know that it’s not hugely long. It’s not like Stephen King wrote it, but it’s a few pages. It’s a It’s more than a few pages, but good on you. I’ve read uh lots of pertinent parts to the conversation tonight. Um, but I did not read the whole thing, so good on you. And by the way, stop me at any point where something from that ties in.

35:50 Can I mention something because it was bothering me and it may be bothering somebody who’s watching. Where it says Brevitt Major, I had to look up what a Brevitt was. A Brevitt Major. And what that means is uh he’s actually a captain. You see up there it says captain first draons at the bottom. He’s really a captain but he’s a brevitt major which means he’s not really a major in terms of he doesn’t get uh really the authority certainly doesn’t get the pay for a major. It’s more of a symbolic kind of promotion based upon meritorious conduct is my understanding.

36:26 Yes. So his the way he’s shown up in the military was something that others uh wanted to um acknowledge and give him credit for. And so he has a title that sort of places him a tiny bit above his actual title, right? And that’s okay as long as he doesn’t have to get paid more. Yeah. Which is Yeah. the way the world works. Uh okay. So tensions arise and I just want to note here things started to turn combustible as the Baker Fer party began to run low on supplies.

37:00 This happens. You leave Arkansas, you fill up your wagons, you head west, there are going to be multiple places along the way that you’re going to have to uh negotiate for additional supplies. You may have to make trades. You may have to purchase things. But one way or another, you cannot fit everything that to make this journey on the front end. You’re going to have to take on new supplies along the way. And so when they began to run low and they look to resupply in southern Utah again, that’s probably the last bit of humanity congested before they head off to California um and before they get there.

37:39 So the distrust by Mormons and the rumors about the Baker Fanser party led to Mormon hostility towards the party. Multiple sources note that Mormon settlements refused or restricted trading with the immigrants in the Utah war climate and that rumors began circulating alleging insults and threats and prior participation in anti- Mormon violence back east. I’ll say this. I believe if I’m not mistaken, I think it’s in this uh slideshow, but there are moments where Brigham Young and other church leaders are suggesting or imposing on the saints not to help immigrants with supplies.

38:26 Yeah. Keep everything for themselves. Yes. And so, as the Utah war is happening, it’s just beginning to get kind of underway. the climate sort of for that to occur. Uh the main confrontation lasted from May 1857 to July 1858. Well, the United States Army is marching on Utah at the time and uh just because the they got impeded and I think there was some activities going on by the Mormons that helped impede them their progress. They had to hold up for that winter. They weren’t able to make it into the Salt Lake Valley by September of 1857. martial law had been declared and everybody needs to keep everything they got because they’re under siege from their point of view.

39:08 Yeah. So you get church leadership telling the saints not to help them out. Again, if you look at the map in the top right hand corner, they they go through Fort Bridger, they get to Salt Lake City and then make their way south. The folks in Salt Lake knew about these folks before the folks in southern Utah knew about these folks. And so you start sending messages up ahead and the saints, the Mormons were well aware that that helping them was maybe something they shouldn’t do. Um so I’ll just note that. Okay.

39:42 Uh this do you want to read the part that’s underlined in red there on the right? This is again from this document uh from Brevitt Major. Uh was it Carlson? Carlton. Carlton, your door man. Yeah. That an immigrant company Okay. Now, this is from the report. It’s under It’s underlined in red. So, that an immigrant company, as respectable as I believe this was, would carry along several pounds of arsenic and strick nine. Okay. Now, this is something. All right. This is the other set of rumors that started circulating as to why it was, you know, Mormons are mad at him because they’re saying they killed Joseph Smith. the the Native Americans are mad at him because they poisoned the water hole and uh there were some Native Americans who drank and they got sick and a couple of them died, but then there was this ox or cow or something that drank and uh it died and then a bunch of Native Americans ate the meat

40:40 from the dead uh cow and then they got all sick and some of them died. So that was the whole thing about the strict night but this is what I was thinking too. I have gone through these slides in advance so I I remembered this a new but when you’re talking about yeah you’re not going to be able to make it from Arkansas to California without resupplying along the way. Space is at a premium. Why on earth would you be putting strick nine and arsenic in your wagon sufficient to poison a water hole, which I expect would take quite a bit, and even have the foresight that that’s something that you might want to be doing when you get to southern Utah.

41:28 And I think that’s what he says here, isn’t it? Yeah. This is uh Dr. Jacob Forny. He’s the other major contributor in this report. And so Dr. Jacob Forny, who made investigations with Major Carlton, began his inquiry hoping, and by the way, he starts off with the premise that it was the Native Americans who did the violence. That’s the rumors have already made it back that this this Baker Fans party has been murdered and it’s at the hands of the Pyute Indians. Um, so so he starts off, it’s not like he went in with the assumption the Mormons did it.

42:04 He went in with the assumption that it was the indigenous people um because that’s what the rumors were. So he’s hoping to saddle the guild exclusively upon the Indians. That’s his words. As he had been told that the immigrants had been poisoning the natives but ended up concluding that the stories about immigrant poisoning springs or meat were too improbable to be true. Just like you’re pointing out RFM, there’s tons of reasons why that just doesn’t make sense. And he goes on and talks about it’s the wrong tribe as well. He says, um, I cannot learn that the Pavans as opposed to the Putes, the Pavans had any difficulty with these people. The massacre took place only about 100 miles south of Corn Creek. And yet, not any of those Indians, as it puts it in the report, were present. So, there’s this is obviously a madeup story. It doesn’t make any sense from a different uh a number of different perspectives.

43:04 Yeah. But think about it from the church members point of view who committed this act. You don’t want to blame it on the Indians who did help you. You want to blame it on some other tribe. You want to put it on whatever Indians don’t work well with you. And so I’ll just note that the rumor gets back to Forny that it’s one tribe when in actuality it is another group of uh indigenous tribe that is assisting as a secondary role with this whole situation if at all. By the way, there’s still dispute about this.

43:37 Good point. I got to ask you a question, Bill. Yeah. Do you think that J Dr. Jacob Forny had fun made of his name when he was in medical school? I I don’t know what you’re trying to say. What What does forny mean? Uh, nothing. Nothing at all. No fun to be made there. Okay. Well, I don’t know what that stands for. Okay, I’m going to move on. Some people got the joke. I did not. Um, so he said it was too probable to be true and that bad white men magnified such stories to inflame Indian hostility. Even in 1860, a federal official was effectively saying the quote they poisoned the Indians unquote story looks like pretext, which is what you pointed out. Like you’re trying to get ahead of things. So you’re coming up with ways to explain what the investigators are going to find and you’re trying to create alibis and and and false directions for the investigators to go in. Um but they figure it out and it doesn’t take them long to do so. Well, the whole thing, yeah, it goes from one step to another,

44:42 right? The first step is it wasn’t us. It was those Native Americans over there. Okay. So, the second part is, uh, you know, they could just do it because they wanted the freaking um, uh, the cattle, right? But the massacre, you know, that’s not normal. So, they must have been really mad about something. Okay, now we got to go and come up with the story that’s going to explain why the Native Americans were mad enough to massacre all these people. And I think that’s where these come from.

45:08 Yeah, you have to keep creating another layer of explanation to cover your tracks. Okay. The the attack itself, the date of the altercation is typically given as September 7th through the 11th, 1857 with the initial attack at the immigrant camp followed by several days of exchange of fire. The Utah archives summary describes a five-day siege ending when the immigrants were lured out and killed. The church’s own topic page likewise describes a first attack, a siege, and then a planned massacre carried out after a false truce. Forn’s account provides vivid operational detail. The immigrants formed a wagon corral, reinforced it with earth, uh, quote, to the wagon beds, unquote, creating a protective fort. Uh, attacks continued daily without accomplishing much until the final day. And um I was talking to you before the show like should we read all of these and there are a few that I do want to read. I think I want folks to really understand the event itself. Would you mind reading this one RFM?

46:15 Uh certainly. I’m so sorry. Uh I was sending you something in the in the private chat. Yeah, I’ll take you to read the article over here. The the one on the right starting with the very first full sentence. Okay. Sorry. Thank you. The massacre. The massacre took place only about 100 miles south of Corn Creek. And yet not and yet not any of those Indians were present. Okay, I’d read up to that point. And I remember bad white men have magnified a natural cause to aid them in exciting the southern Indians as it puts here hoping that by so doing they could be relied upon to exterminate the said company and escape detection themselves.

46:59 Thus on the Monday morning subsequent to the Friday 4th or 5th of September, the day they camped at the spring, the Indians commenced firing upon them and continued daily until and during the eighth day of their encamping, but without accomplishing much. Several were killed, however, and a few wounded. When the company first apprehended and attacked, they formed a corral with their wagons. They circled the wagons and filled up with earth to the wagon beds, which made a protective fort. So, they’re digging up all the earth and sticking it under the wagons until they’ve got earth up to the very bottom of the wagon. Right. The bottom of the wagon bed. So, they’ve got this kind of low wall as protection.

47:54 Yeah. And then it says, “White men were present and directed the Indians.” Um, and I say protection, Bill. I’ve been out there once. It was snowing. You were out there today and it wasn’t your first time. The place where these settlers were, it’s kind of at the center of sort of a depression, isn’t it? In other words, they’re kind of lower than everything else around them. There is, and you’ll see pictures here at the end, there there is this meadow and then all and it’s a big meadow and all around the meadow is mountains. Um, which makes sense again if I want to I want to build a sea. If anybody’s I got plenty of time if I see anyone coming.

48:31 Uh, it’s a great place to stop for a moment. The ground is flat. It’s the grass grows there well. Uh, but then you’ve got the mountains all around where you can clearly see if somebody were to come over the peak of the mountain and head towards you, you’d have you’d have some time to sort of get ready. Um, so yes, I I I depression, but yes, the metal sits uh with a mountain surrounding it.

48:56 Yeah. And I was kind of doing that also in view of the fact that they’ve got a low wall, but it’s even lower because they’re in the middle of a depression and everybody out there is higher. Correct. Yeah. Okay. Um the siege itself uh Forny reports that white men including John D. Lee and others displayed a white flag, negotiated and obtain the immigrants arms with the expectation that their lives would be spared. He then describes the group being escorted away from the corral with the women and children and the wounded in wagons and the non-wounded adult men attended to by the Mormon men. And uh I know that there will be some members of our audience who will have been at this site.

49:51 For those who have not ever been out there, I think the pictures will do a lot of justice. But I’ll just note this. where the women and children were taken, where the men were taken are are there’s a substantial difference in distance. Uh this isn’t all happening close to each other. There is there’s several several hundred yards difference, five, six, 700 yards of distance between any one place where part of this takes place and some other spot where another part of this takes place. where the women and children were and where the men and boys uh grown the you know the young adult men uh the distance where this would have been would have been quite separated uh and you’ll see that in the photos later um and that’s because they were separated as they were marching them along.

50:39 Correct. Yeah. There was it was uh intentional on the part of the Mormons to create significant distance between the grown men and the women and children and the women and children were in front. Is that right? Uh I believe so. And I think the men were at the back. And one man walked with every man from the Baker Fanser party. Yeah. One Mormon, right? Yeah. One Mormon man. Correct. Uh and we can read that there, but it’s going to say essentially the same thing. By the way, folks, anywhere along the way, I highly suggest you just pause the show, feel free to read the original document. Um so the deceptionbased annihilation, that’s what I’m calling the next section. After several days under siege, the immigrants were exhausted. Again, they’re low on supplies. They’re low on water. Several of them have now been killed. Several others are wounded.

51:30 They’ve had no reason to think that help was coming. That’s when a group of local militia men that they would have recognized as Latter-day Saints, cuz again, you’re you’ve gone through Salt Lake City, you’re heading to Southern Utah, you know, this is Mormon territory. Um, so the Latter-day Saints approached under a white flag, a false flag. They offered a deal. If the immigrants would lay down their weapons, they would be protected and escorted safely out of the valley. It sounded like a way out. They didn’t have any other way to get past this, so they agreed. Um, so there’s that.

52:10 Borne then describes the group being escorted away from the corral with the women, children, and wounded in wagons and the non-wounded adult men attended to by the Mormon men and then at a certain signal the killing began. And I just want to note here that because procedural things occurred, it is it is absolutely clear that this wasn’t some spontaneous thing. This was a coordinated event. Um because everybody does certain things at certain moments when certain cues are given. This was well planned out. You had to have sat down with all of these Mormon men and it would have had to have been expressed what we’re about to do, what you’re expected to do, what the signals will be, how we’re going to handle this, how we’re going to handle that, what we’re going to do here, what we’re going to do there. That’s how methodical this event was. These Mormon men planned this out to the tea.

53:15 Um, and so you can see that there. The old women and children wounded says the exact same thing. Taken in the wagons, company proceeded towards Panther Creek. Uh, anything you want to say there? Okay. Oh, the the Brevitt major in his special report to Congress uses the expression the work of death. Did you notice that, Bill? Uh, I did not see that. Is that in this quote here? Uh, yes. They began the work of death.

53:48 Gotcha. Yep. There it is. Signal the work of death commenced. And a signal the work of death commenced. And then I just thought, well, I know I’ve heard that expression before, though not in anything recent written recently. It occurs three times in the Book of Mormon. So, it’s not like it’s an expression of any antiquity. It’s right at home in the 19th century. Yeah. Right. This isn’t the Book of Mormon is not an ancient document. This language is coming from somewhere. Yes, it is. For those who are listening and care, it’s Alma 43 37 and 38, Alma 4420, and Alma Alma 60 2-7.

54:24 It is strange, huh, that uh I guess this is part of the expansion theory, but that characters in the Book of Mormon are using the same language that Brevitt Major Carlton, who probably never read the Book of Mormon, is using. Yeah. And it’s just this psychological thing that we as Mormons often do, which is we look at something that’s in the Book of Mormon, an expression which is not common today, and we think, “Oh, that means it’s really, really old.”

54:49 Like when the Book of Mormon was written down on the gold plates thousands of years ago, and then we realize, wait a second, it isn’t used today. That part’s true. But actually, everybody was talking about it when Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon. Yeah, it’s a common phrase. All right. So the men were led separately, each one accompanied by an armed militia for a short distance. They moved like this in silence. Then at a pre-arranged signal, by the way, at least I think it shows up at least once in the slideshow, the signal was the word halt. So we’re walking along and the whoever is leading this thing uh tells everyone halt. And so everybody stops and the men Norman men pull out their guns and commit the atrocity. So then there are different there are different accounts and I thought I had read an account once where the signal was at the point that the wagon carrying the women passed under the branch of a certain tree.

55:46 Have you ever heard that one? No, I have not. But that may be the case. Uh but I think we’ll see somewhere here later on someone mentioned that it was the word halt. In fact, I it’s in the trial when people are sharing their testimony uh in the legal proceedings. Somebody says that and and it may be both, right? Like this I can imagine this long line and some people in the far back wouldn’t be able to quite see where the where the sign is in terms of when people pass a certain point. So, it also makes sense that you would need someone to give a verbal signal as well.

56:21 Good point. Um, okay. So, the militia turned and shot the men that they were walking beside. At the same time, other attackers, both militia and Pyute allies, fell on the women and the older children. There was no real chance to escape. Within minutes, it was over. Around 120 men, women, and older children were killed. Only the youngest children, generally those considered too young to remember or tell what happened were spared.

56:55 And I think again they don’t know the ages of every kid. They didn’t sit down with every kid and get their biography and check in. They had to sort of make an assumption, but it was around the age of seven is where they made the cut off. And uh I’ll say this too and we might see at least some of these photos, but when I was there today, the main grave site memorial uh around the edges of that are plaques listing all the victims. And you know, you walk by these plaques and it’s constantly the average age I would say was 23, 25, somewhere in there. But you can see, you know, you know, John Doe, six, and again, it gives the actual names, but John Doe, 16 years old. Jane Doe, 9 years old. I saw one that was nine years old. Um, the Mormons made the decision to kill everyone, kids included, who they didn’t think would who they who they thought would be able to remember what had happened. And so only those around the age of seven and younger were spared.

58:01 And again, I saw at least uh a couple of names that were 9, 10, 11 years old. I’ll just note here, cover-ups are often baked into the crime. Once the Mormons chose disguise and false flags, they were already admitting implicitly that they understood what they were doing was wrong. Otherwise, there’s no need to pretend. There’s no need to have disguises. There’s no need to go under false flags. Uh so there’s that.

58:33 You know, again, we’ve we’ve had moments where the pyutes get blamed. Some some stories, some recollections of this indicate that there were no pyutes, but instead the Mormons dressed up like Indians, put some face paint on, dressed in certain clothing to appear like Indians. I’ve heard those stories before. uh in uh Anna Jane Bakis, the life and times of Bishop Philip Klingan Smith book, Mountain Meadows Witness. Uh the prosecution, did you hear Lee say anything about any previous attack?

59:13 The witness? Yes, sir. I heard him say that morning that they had been attacked and could not be routed. Attacked by whom? He was asked. Answer by the Mormons who went out with the Indians. Well, go on from that point. Were you before where you were before when Higgby was giving the orders? Answer. Well, we were to march along a little ways with this people alongside of us. And when the word halt came, we were to fire.

59:49 Every man fired as far as I know. This is an interesting statement. Every man fired, as far as I know, whether I did or not, I can’t tell. Now, when we read that, the way that’s normally used is, I can’t remember. You can bet your ass he can remember. It seems more of whether I did or not, I’m not telling you. Well, one would presume he’s one of the number of every man. So, first he says he did fire and then he says, “I don’t know if I did.”

1:00:26 Yeah. I plead the fifth, your honor. It would incriminate me. I would like to not answer that question. Yeah. And, you know, I’m not an expert on this, so I’m probably going out on a limb, but I think it was this kind of um testimony which was used to convict um Lee Harold B. Lee. He was the guy who got assassinated out there at Mount Meadows, wasn’t he? John D. Lee. But Harold De Lee. That was it. It was John De. Thank you, Harold. Harold should have been taken with him.

1:01:03 But yeah, it was a kind this kind of testimony that just seemed very self- serving and only designed not to actually get at any any any wrongdoing, any inculpatory statements by any of the witnesses, but they’re just giving testimony against John De so he can be taken out there and executed. Yeah. Somebody has to take the fall for this. And by the way, decades after it happened, I think 20, wasn’t it? Yeah. 20 years.

1:01:29 Yeah. Somebody’s got to swing for this. Uh so the aftermath um only the youngest children survived infants and small children believed too young to identify perpetrators. Forny is unusually direct. He says 17 children 2 months to 7 years old were spared. They were removed from the field of slaughter the evening of the killings. taken to Jacob Hamlin’s house. By the way, you know, Cedar City, uh, St. George, Santa Clara, essentially is further south. Of course, off to the side a little bit, but further south.

1:02:12 Jacob Hanland’s home was in Santa Clara. We’re we’re talking about, you know, a decent distance as all these events are taking place in not just a a small area, but in a a little bit larger geography. As I read it, Jacob Hamlin’s home is four miles to the north. Mountain Meadows is on Jacob Hamblin’s property. This is how close he is to this. Yeah. The So, Cedar City, it’s about an hour’s drive for me to get to Mountain Meadows from my home. 52 minutes.

1:02:52 It takes me once I get close to Mount Meadows, it’s another 37 miles or so to to St. George. So the there it’s not like a straight line either, though. But again, I could be wrong here, but the Jacob Hamlin home that I’m aware of is in Santa Clara, which would be more than four miles away. So maybe there’s a an earlier home or a later home of Jacob Hamlin that plays a part in this Mountain Meadow Massacre. in the home that I’m aware of is from a different moment in Jacob’s life.

1:03:25 I think it’s on the same road that the the whole um party the fans the Baker Venture party was on. Is it the Spanish road? The old Spanish road. Yes. Um yeah, I would have to pull up what the address is for Jacob Hamlin’s home. I just know that I’ve been to Hamlin’s home and the home that you can go and do a tour through. Maybe folks can look this up. Maybe somebody in the comments knows the data here. But if you go to visit the Jacob Hamlin home, which is owned by the LDS church, and a senior missionary will give you a tour there. Jacob Hamlin’s Ranch. Oh, I’m so sorry.

1:03:58 I’m looking at a different page. That’s okay. It’s in Santa Clara, Utah, if I’m not mistaken. Jacob Hamlin’s Ranch House was located on the northern slope of the Mountain Meadows Valley, approximately four to six miles from the main site of the massacre. While his primary home was on the Santa Clara, this ranch was close enough that his family members stayed there, staying there, witnessed the 1857 event, and took in child survivors. That’s why he was the first stop.

1:04:25 Yeah. And I’ll note here because I don’t think we’ll mention Hamlin in a He says he wasn’t there at the time, by the way. I think he says he was in Salt Lake City, but nobody was there at the time. He wasn’t. He He had gone the other direction. So, as the Baker Fanser party was coming uh past Salt Lake down into southern Utah, uh Jacob Hamlin was heading north. And so, there is some uh at least conversation that they had perhaps passed each other on the road, for instance.

1:04:52 And by the way, I’m sorry, Bill, what I said could be misunderstood. When I said nobody was there at the time, what I mean was there was no Mormon who was involved who was there to do it. Okay? They all gave stories that they were somewhere else doing when they were down on the muddy. either up in Salt Lake City, they’re anywhere and everywhere except at the Mountain Meadows when the massacre occurs at Jacob Hamlin’s home.

1:05:14 He says he wasn’t there, but he had at least a wife who was present to take the kids in when they were brought up. Yeah. And I will note this, by the way, they’re saying the same. Somebody already wrote it up there because they thought that’s what I meant. Yep. And I’ll just note here, I think this is important. As we try to reconcile Mormon involvement with the Mountain Meadow Massacre, there are folks who suggest that if Jacob Hamlin had been around, he would have not allowed this to happen. That his approach to things that he would have been seen as a leader and that his approach to things would have been one to stand up to this and not allow it. If you want to believe that, that’s fine. I will also tell you that it’s a fact that Jacob Hamlin helped perpetuate the lies that the Native Americans had committed the act even though he knew very well what had happened and so he played a part in the cover up in a significant way. I can’t hear you, RFM.

1:06:18 And though we’re not going to go into detail, the story he gave to the investigators, although he seemed to talk quite freely and impress them, it does have a number of things in it that you make you go, that doesn’t make any sense. Yeah, he’s he’s lying, too. He’s covering it up, too. And so just to note that uh Fory adds none of the children were claimed by or were living with or among the Indians.

1:06:47 Right? The Indians did this but for some reason all of these kids are being housed in Mormon homes. The Utah archive summary reinforces that those children were placed in Mormon homes and later reunited with extended family outside Utah. So the Mormons kill the above the age of seven. They kill everyone from the Baker Fanter party. And then it says they divided out the children among Mormon families in places like Cedar City and Santa Clara and everywhere in between.

1:07:23 40 rem the the amazing part if this can’t be any more amazing. The only thing that makes it more amazing to me is that when these people went out there, the the bevit major from the US Army, right, to talk to the Mormons, what they claimed was the the way they got in possession of the children is that the Native Americans who had done the slaughter and stolen the children, sold the children to the Mormons. The Mormons bought the children from the Native Americans, and that’s why these children are with the Mormons. And then the Mormons turn around and say, “We paid this much and we have put all this money in feeding and raising these kids and we want to be reimbursed x amount of money from the federal government for our trouble.”

1:08:10 Yeah. You’ll see the letter to the audience. You’ll see the letter later that John D. rights to the government saying we’ve got some incurred cost in this thing where the Indians have killed these this group and we’ve incurred cost and we are requesting that you reimburse us because on the books at the time is government reimbursements for harm that had come to US uh uh you know settlers at the hands of the Native Americans.

1:08:42 Um so you’ll see that letter here shortly. Uh Forny remarks that when he obtained the children they were in better condition than children generally in the settlements in which they lived. So they were pretty well taken care of. But I don’t think that matters. These are the very murderers of their parents and the community that those murderers stayed in who are now housing and raising these children. I think it’s an important statement from the doctor because he comes down hard against the Mormons as having done this ultimately, but he is nevertheless able to look at evidence that cuts against this theory and his dislike for the Mormons who did this and say, you know, they were taken care of better than most kids in the settlement.

1:09:33 What that tells me is I am more likely to be able to trust what he says when he’s saying bad things about the Mormons because he can say good things about him, too. Yeah. And I’ll just note that’s not praise of the system. That’s a reminder that people can commit atrocity and still do targeted acts of caretaking and kindness afterward. And and in this case, and maybe others, often as a way to manage their own cognitive dissonance around what had happened. Can you imagine doing that, Bill? No, you know, it’s funny because when I imagine it in my mind, I’m sorry. I’m just doing this like um stream of consciousness.

1:10:12 I’ve done this a number of times. I never imagine it, Bill, from the point of view. It’s always a man, right? So, it’s never up there in the wagon, but it’s never the man who’s getting shot. I’m always imagining it from the point of view of a man, the Mormon, who is pulling up the gun and blowing the brains out of the man standing next to you who has been lured out under a flag of peace, a white flag. And I just think, how could you live with yourself after doing something like that? How could you do that in the first place?

1:10:49 And yet each and every one of them did, apparently. Yeah. And I think it gets worse, too. I mean, Orney reports that the party had a large quantity of property, not one particle of which has been satisfactorily accounted for, and he believed it was distributed among the white inhabitants who participated. He also explicitly attributes motive. The perpetrators were influenced chiefly by a determination to acquire wealth, by robbery.

1:11:24 Carlton compiling investigative material includes claims that cattle taken from the immigrants could be traced into Mormon hands and even sold after the federal army arrived. I had read somewhere, I didn’t see it in the report, but I had read somewhere that even some of the clothes off of those who were murdered. Again, they’re acknowledging that their belongings were taken. the the belongings of the settlers are taken and distributed distributed among Mormon families too.

1:11:56 And I had heard a report that even some of the clothes of those who had been murdered had been taken and again dispensed among members of the Mormon community. Imagine being a 5-year-old kid who’s been had your parents murdered and you’ve been placed into the home of the community who murdered your parents. and you start seeing people wearing your mom’s dress or you see someone wearing your dad’s shirt, it it’s just another layer of trauma that these kids had to deal with. And as much as there are all these apologetic explanations for what happened, those who investigated this said at least one component of this was that they were influenced chiefly by a determination to acquire wealth by robbery.

1:12:50 It was a nice company. It had lots of cows and lots of good things. Yeah, they were well stocked, wellprepared, more so than other immigration companies heading west. Carlton compiling investigative claims uh talks about the cattle being taken and they could be traced into Mormon hands and even sold after the federal army arrived. Uh so there’s that. So now we get to the Brigham Young letter and uh we have the letter. So, so they, you know, the the Mormons in southern Utah write to Brigham Young who’s already seen this immigration company pass and they’ve sent a letter to him saying, “What should we do with these people?”

1:13:39 And this is the response he wrote. Um, and he wrote this on September 10th, one day before the massacre occurs, 1857. Now, is it more accurate to say that the letter is dated September 10th, 1857? I was just getting ready to say that to you, RFM, which which is in a world where we’re dealing with Mormonism and all the dishonesty and obfiscation that happens around Mormon history, what is our I don’t know this. I I’d welcome Dan Vogle or some other historian’s input. What is our confidence level that this was actually pinned on September 10th, 1857? Because it’s a really convenient thing that it’s written before the massacre, but it just didn’t arrive until after.

1:14:35 Well, these things do happen. And I’ve got to add, okay, look, Brigham Y. Young had a lot of qualities, some of them um atrocious. He’s no dummy. The last thing, look, he’s got the United States Army who’s coming down on him from the north and they’re going to be here as soon as the snow falls and then melts. And the last thing that Brigham Young is going to want is a freaking massacre happening for them to investigate.

1:15:04 They’re already mad at the Mormons. They’re looking for any reason they can to wipe out the Mormons again. And I don’t think Brigham Young would want to give it to them. Is it fair to say again this letter exists? Look how pristine it is. You know, it’s not it’s in great shape. Yeah, it seems to me again I welcome uh Vogle saying that he doesn’t know much about the Mountain Meadow Massacre. It again without knowing again it could end up being the other direction. I would say that it’s in Mormonism, it’s almost more likely that this was written as an afterthought to give cover just on the regardless of what the actual facts were. Yeah, it it certainly could be. Yeah, I have no idea. It covers that. It says in regard to the immigrants, I mean, they needed to find out what what they needed to do. So they rode north and um to get the word of Brigham Young on what they should do.

1:16:05 Yeah. Would you mind reading the letter there on the right? That’s the actual full text of the letter. If anybody has any doubts, you can zoom in and see there on the left. Okay. It says, “Elder Isaac C. Hate.” I think there’s a state president in Iron County. Is that right? I think so. Dear brother, your note on the seventh instant, it’s an old way of saying of this month is to hand. Captain von Blleck, acting commissary is here, having come in advance of the army, that’s the US Army, to procure necessaries for them. We do not expect that any part of the army will be able to reach here this fall. There is only about 850 men coming. They are now at or near Laram. A few of their freight trains are on this side of that place, the advance of which are now on Greek River. They will not be able to come much if any further on account of their poor stock.

1:17:04 They cannot get here this season. See, this is good because it puts all this context in there about the concerns about the United States Army. I mean, this is a perfect storm of bad events lining up and resulting in this horrific massacre. They cannot get here this season without we help them. So, so you see that the Lord has answered our prayers and again averted the blow designed for our heads.

1:17:27 Now, here’s the underlying part. In regard to the immigration trains passing through our settlements, we must not interfere with them until they are first notified to keep away. You must not meddle with them. The Indians, we expect, will do as they please, but you should try and practice and preserve good feelings with them. There are no other trains going south that I know of. If the if those that are there will leave, let them go in peace.

1:18:00 Okay, so it certainly is exculpatory, this letter for Brigham Young. But the thing that is remarkable to me, and I know I’m not done with it yet, the story that ends up going around, right, is that it was the Indians. The Native Americans are the ones who did it, not the Mormons. So, if that’s so, why are the Mormons writing at a furious pace up to Brigham Y Young to get an answer to a question? And this whole part that deals with the the immigrants down there in Mountain Meadows has to do with you as Mormons should leave them alone and don’t meddle with them. It does say the Indians will do what they want, I suppose. But why is he answering a question which according to the um the alibi story they came up with wouldn’t have even been asked in the first place?

1:18:48 Yes. If I understand you right, what you’re saying is the question he’s answering is should we do harm to this group or not? Yes. Yeah. Why are they asking that question? Right. Wouldn’t they just start with the default that we don’t do harm to people? I think that this letter says a lot more about the situation. I think it may be more important than, you know, laying the blame at Brigham Young’s feet. I think it definitely lays the blame at the feet of the people who are there. This whole thing about Native Americans was ridiculous. They were coming to Brigham Young to tell them what had really happened, what was really going on, and what should they do.

1:19:31 Yeah. And will you finish it? And I’ll just note too again, if I was going to write this letter after the fact as a way to create some cover and distance, it makes so much sense to go on and on, which he does here. Yes. And let me just say this another way to make this clear because this is an idea that just came to me as we were talking, right? If the if the person came with the letter from Mountain Meadows to Brigham Young, what should we do? And it was really Native Americans who had done all this, then Brigham Young would have been writing a very different letter in response.

1:20:07 Yeah. He’s telling the Mormons, “Don’t do what you would normally do. Leave them alone.” He’s telling, “Leave them alone.” Yes. Okay. And then he concludes, “While we should be on the alert, on hand, and always ready, we should also possess ourselves in patience, preserving ourselves and property, ever remembering that God rules. He has overruled for our deliverance. Thus once again and he will always do so if we live in if we live in our religion and be united in our faith and good works. All is well with us. May the Lord bless you and all the saints forever. Your brethren in the gospel of Christ. Brigham Y.

1:20:49 That’s a very different set of theology and teachings than what he just gave less than a year earlier. By the way, there’s a postcript on this letter. It says, “PS, vengeance is mine, sayaeth the Lord, and I have taken a little.” Yeah. The same guy who wrote this wrote that. Yeah. Same guy who wrote this taught blood atonement on multiple occasions. Yeah. The ZYA letter, isn’t it?

1:21:20 Yeah. The same guy who wrote this uh gave the Danites assignments and things to do to scare people off. Right there it is. Mountain Meadows Massacre. Here’s the book you’re talking about by Wanita Brooks. Mormon historian Wanita Brooks believes that the letter demonstrates that Young did not order the massacre. That’s her perspective. Brooks writes, quote, “While Brigham Young and other church authorities did not specifically order the massacre, they did preach sermons and set up social conditions that made it possible.” unquote. Brooks had ar has argued the massacre was an overreaction by Mormon militia forces which resulted in the death of settlers and the tarnishing of the church’s reputation.

1:22:05 Um so that’s her point of view, but there’s a different point of view here. Uh Will Bagley and and he’s not the first one to say it. He’s echoing that of David White. Their conclusion was that the letter does not absolve. By the way, this is Blood of the Prophets, Brigham Young. Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows by Will Baggley. Baggley notes that Young often started his letters with broad generalizations with that had little meaning and then conceal the main message in one or two tur sentences in the middle of the text. In this case, the real message would have been that the Indians should be left to quote do as they please unquote. And in that framework, the message to not interfere would be subordinate to the main message, which is let nothing stand in the way of the Mormon Pyute Alliance. In other words, the Indians might do something different. Whatever they do, do not condemn,

1:23:11 condone, like let them do their own thing because our relationship with them is more important than uh us stopping these settlers from being harmed. Or the secret message could have been drink your Ovaltine. It could be anything, I guess. Huh. I worry about a historic uh methodology that relies upon secret messages in letters. Yeah. I will say this, Dan, do you have I see Dan Vogle in the comments. Do you have any uh experience with the writings of Brigham Young to the extent that you can vouch for at least the generality of what Bagley is saying here, which is that Brigham Young often embedded a prioritized message after giving something maybe contradictory early on in the letter.

1:24:04 Uh, I’d be curious to know if what your thoughts are on that. But again, Baggley and David White both thought Young wrote in code sometimes and had contradicting messages and those who read the letters would know what was important and what wasn’t. And we are the ones who can interpret it for you and let you know what it is that they would know. Yeah, there you spot to be in. By the way, it was Henry II of England. Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?

1:24:34 Also expressed his troublesome or medalsome is about Beckett. Becket. Yeah. And as you point out, he didn’t tell anyone kill him. No. Explicitly, but implicitly he said, “Will someone help me out enough and kill him?” Yes. It was not quoted as expressed as an order, but it prompted four knights to travel from Normandy to Canterbury where they killed Beckett. Yeah. Yeah, due to the ongoing dispute between the crown and the church, it got the job done. Uh, all right. So, next up is the oath of silence. By the way, in a religion that has sacred oaths, I thought this was interesting.

1:25:16 Um, this is out of the book Mormonism Unveiled. This is life and confessions written by John D. Lee. Members of the militia were sworn to secrecy. The plan was set to blame the massacre on the Native Americans. Would you mind reading this part of the book? I mean, of course. Who else would you blame? Um, yes. Did you Did you Can Let me see here. Um, if we go down below, maybe that’ll help me out. I think that’s just enough. Did you hear either of those men talk about it about keeping it secret? That’s the question. There’s no answer to that question. Here comes the next question from the attorney, I believe. Is it not a fact that after the property was all gathered up at the meadows and you were ready to start for Iron Springs that speeches were made to the men present by those in authority in which speeches you were ordered to keep it a secret forever? And the answer here was do you know who the witness is in this?

1:26:16 Uh I don’t I do not know that offhand. It might be John De Lee but I’m not positive. Um there were a great many speeches made is the answer. So, there were a bunch of speeches made apparently on site after the massacre at the Meadows. The next question, at the Meadows, before you left there, was it not told you in a speech then made to you that it must be kept secret? That’s the point the attorney’s driving at.

1:26:41 That it must be kept secret that it would be best to keep silent. Were you not so advised by your leaders? Answer: Yes, sir. Question. Who gave that advice? Who ordered you to keep silent? answer is Klingan Smith and hate gave the advice. And then it continues, the cross-examination was continued at great length, but the witness could not or would not recollect anything except at what he had been advised by his priestly rulers to swear to. Yeah, I think that’s a little bit of a speculation. Nephi Johnson is a fair example of the willing tools who commit crimes. Now, maybe that’s who the witness was. Nephi Johnson is a fair example of the willing tools who commit crimes for Christ’s sake and swear falsely for their own sake. I have given sufficient of his evidence. Yes, to prove to the reader that Nephi Johnson was has not told the whole truth. He has only told what the church leaders thought sufficient to convict Lee and kept back everything that would lead to the conviction of the other murdering

1:27:47 wretches who still adhere to the Mormon faith and skullk in their hiding places far from the haunts of lawabiding citizens. Yeah. So, at least there are uh references to them being ordered to keep this secret, keep it silent. And of course, I’m so sorry, but of course, this is John D. Lee’s version of stuff. Yep. So, his whole his whole thing is, you know, I’m a pathy. I’m the scapegoat and everybody and I got, you know, I tried twice. The jury hung up the first time and then they convicted me the second time in very Mormon, Utah. So, he figured the fix was in. And he says all these witnesses come up there and this is the testimony they give this crazy testimony that doesn’t remember anything about what they did but like only about what John de Lee did so he could get convicted and and while the apologist or the believer or the person who uh wants to lean on the side of trying to give as much benefit to the church as possible might want to say

1:28:55 well hey this is John De Lee’s book let’s let’s take it with a grain of salt. Well, I think it’s also important to note that there is no doubt that uh hate and the other leaders who are above John D. Lee in authority take part in this whole event. And it’s also crystal clear that the proceedings happen in such a way as to give everyone else but John D. Lee extreme distance that none of them have to be accountable uh and and uh be executed like John D. Lee. So while you might want to give speaking to those who want to give the benefit while some of you might want to give the benefit of the doubt uh to the church or to the other people involved and try to put as much of this on John D. Lee as possible.

1:29:51 The facts seem to indicate to me that John D. Lee was made a scapegoat. Mhm. And the fact that that happened, just by its very nature, indicates that secrets were kept and almost certainly oaths were taken. Yeah. Now, let me tell you what would have happened if this had been normal, a normal trial with all these witnesses who were called to testify and who did testify about what happened that day and what John De did. Normally, you would expect that none of those people would testify at trial because they are themselves likely suspects for the murder, for the massacre. Why would you give testimony under oath that can be used against you in a criminal proceeding instead of invoking your fifth amendment right to remain silent unless something is going on behind the scenes and you have been given promises of not being prosecuted in exchange for your testimony as long as it gets the guy that the prosecutor’s after.

1:31:01 I’ll I’ll add one more thing which is um Oh, I’m lost my train of thought. Uh that happens to me sometimes. Oh, the hung jury. So, I would love to know. I assume this trial took place in Utah. I assume, especially with that first jury, that that jury was made up of Mormons. Imagine the evidence being shared here. and it being a hung jury like they’re they go into the room, the jury breaks away from the courtroom and sits down and goes, I don’t know, beyond a reasonable doubt, I don’t know.

1:31:39 Mhm. And he’s one of us. Yeah. And all this kind of stuff. And the word is, look, we don’t know what happened, but uh and there are times when juries hang up and then the case is retrieded in front of a second jury that convicts. I mean, this happens. Some people think that the second jury that certain people made sure the second jury got the memo. Yes. Somebody has to pay the price or this will never go away. And in a religion that has blood atonement where all of us can act as saviors on Mount Zion, it makes sense that you pick a person who takes the fall for everyone else so that the church reduces the stain on itself. Which, by the way, LDS church, how did that work in the long run? Not that great. The cover up is almost always worse than the crime. Uh, and in this case, that’s hard to believe, but it is what will stain you forever.

1:32:40 Um, yeah, it seems like in Mormon theology, it makes sense that you pick a person, John D. and you say, “I’m sorry, buddy, but you’re going to be the one who acts who takes the fall on behalf for and in behalf of all of us.” Uh, Mormonism makes a lot of space in theology for something like that to happen. Not that John D. wanted to. And the poetic irony was that ultimately they shed his blood so that he could be saved in the celestial kingdom.

1:33:15 Yeah. Blood atonement was affected one way or the other. uh the scapegoats. So, here’s that letter I was telling you about. I think this is written by John De Lee. Yeah. Yeah. BL. This is John De Lee. November 20th, 1857. This is the letter he writes to the government telling them all the things that were lost or spent or that the that the Baker Fans party had taken, he’s giving an account for it because there’s an expectation that they’ll get reimbured for this. So immediately the Mormons place blame at the feet of the Native Americans. A fascinating artifact of this blame the Indian strategy is John D. Lee’s November 20th, 1857 letter to Brigham Young in his capacity as superintendent of Indian affairs when uh there’s something wrong with the people involved also being involved at more of a administrative level who can help to cover this up. And Brigham Young is the superintendent of Indian Affairs,

1:34:23 which allows him room to be involved in this in ways that he should not be involved. Lee frames the massacre as Indian revenge triggered by alleged immigrant poisoning, and he appends accounts for cattle, wagons, and goods for the benefit of specific Indian bands. This is exactly the kind of paperwork you’d produce if you were positioning the event as an Indian depradation eligible for government reimbursement.

1:34:55 Well, the Mormon church has been filing fraudulent documents with the federal government for a long time now. They’ve been doing that for a while. Uhhuh. So, there’s that. Uh, just to note that. Yet, the leadership narrative persisted for years. And this was the one that caught my eye. Like I there’s at some point where it just doesn’t serve you anymore to be dishonest. Uh in Brigham Young’s March 8th, 1863 sermon, and by that here’s what I mean.

1:35:25 For the person who’s going to lie, there are moments that you can lie, and for the most part, you can go like, “Prove me wrong.” But in this instance, we are as late now as 1863. Brigham Young clearly can be shown to understand that this was his own people that committed this act. And yet when he’s giving a sermon to the Mormons generally, he still wants the members to be deceived and to still think it’s the Native Americans.

1:35:59 This is where LDS leadership is telling is is acknowledging at least in certain places one thing but still wanting the members to walk away. misunderstanding the truth. Yeah. Um so March 8th, 1863, he describes the immigrant company in 1857 as having been destroyed by the Indians. I’m going to go on there, but I think rather than read that, I’d actually like this to be read. So RFM, will you read I think Yep.

1:36:29 So if you’ll read um those two cutouts of the talk given on March 8th of 1863. Yeah. So 5 and a half years later after the massacre, Brigham Young says this. We are in the midst of these mountains and we have good and salutary laws to govern us. We have our constitutional laws and our territorial laws. We are subject to these laws and always expect to be for we love to be, says the guy covering up for a freaking massacre. If there is any man among us who has violated any constitutional law, try the law upon him and let us see whether there is any virtue in it before we try the strong arm of despatism and tyranny.

1:37:12 I stand for constitutional law and if any transgression let them be tried by it and if guilty suffer its penalty. In 1857, ah it is estimated that 11,000 troops were ordered here. Some 7,000 started for this place with several thousand hangers on. I thought he had said like 850 in that other place. But anyway, they came into this territory when a company of immigrants were traveling on the south route to California. So there’s the Baker Fans party. They came into this territory when a company of immigrants were traveling on the south route to California. Nearly all of that company were destroyed by the Indians.

1:37:59 That unfortunate affair has been laid to the charge of the whites. In other words, us. It goes on to another place. I pledged him that the court should be protected from any violence or hindrance in the prosecution of the laws. And if any were guilty of the blood of those who suffered in the mountain meadow massacre, let them suffer the penalty of the law. But to this day they have not touched the matter. For fear the Mormons would be acquitted from the charge of having any hand in it, and our enemies would thus be deprived of a favorite topic to talk about when urging hostility against us. the Mountain Meadow Massacre. Only think of the Mountain Meadow Massacre is their cry from one end of the land to the other.

1:38:45 And he knows that the Mormons were involved. And if you see this from the other side, yes, you’re going to be hesitant to try this in Utah where this happens because what you’re going to run into is exactly what happened. a hung jury and one guy taking the fall for many because the church has so much influence just like it does today over matters that it has uh it has influence over the polit politicians the judges and the judicial affairs of of the area.

1:39:20 It strikes me as odd that he is um he’s doing a dance of triumph or something saying that the um the reason that the federal government hasn’t moved against the Mormons yet judicially on this subject is because there’s no evidence there when actually I think what is more likely is that the federal government is involved elsewhere namely in a certain civil war which they’ve been involved in for two years as of the time that Brigham Y Young gives this sermon. Yeah, that was hugely lucky for the Mormons.

1:39:54 The Civil War wasn’t lucky for a lot of people. It was lucky for the Mormons because it took this entire investigation of this horrific, horrific massacre and took it off the front page and nobody was paying any attention to it for 4 years. And then there’s all these other things that have to be done to after the war is over and reconstruction and all these other things. They were able to be out there in Utah and not under the scrutiny of the federal government for an extended period of time that would not have happened otherwise.

1:40:34 Yeah. at at a at a moment when Brigham Young certainly understood what had happened. He is telling the members of the church, here’s the evidence so that you can know that we are innocent of this. We didn’t do this. The Indians did it. Um these are the same kinds of games that the church plays today. We consider the matter closed. All right. Um, so I’ll just note here this is a simple story of Indians I’m sorry this is not a simple story of Indians were blamed. It’s a story of indigenous people being recruited and then used as moral and political insulation. Forny concludes that the Indians acted only a secondary part.

1:41:19 Forny again is the Dr. Jacob Forny uh the gentleman who was part of the uh Briv uh Carlton uh that whole document that went into all of this. So the church’s 2007 statement goes further acknowledging that an expression of regret is owed to the Pyute people who have unjustly borne the principal blame while also noting the extent of Pyute involvement is disputed. Um, and so you can see the church, you know, Elder Irene goes out there.

1:41:55 President Hinckley went out there at one point. Wow. Did he cry? Did President Irene cry when he was saying this? That’s that’s why you sent him of him. That’s why you send Henry B. I is because you know you’re going to get him crying and making it an emotional moment. Who can ask a tough follow-up question to to Hank? I mean, it’d be like you’d be bullying him. Yeah. Yeah, he’s got a certain disposition that I’ve seen recently. Yeah.

1:42:24 Okay. Um I remember when this happened and that there was some hubbhub about why don’t you just say you’re sorry? Yeah. It’s interesting. I was telling Teresa this today when we were out there. The way this ap and the apology is there on the site. You can read it there as well. Um, but they say again when it comes to the Pyute people, there’s it says here a separate expression of regret is owed to the Pyute people. And it several parts in this apology where there’s no apology given is this expression of regret. And I just want to note in this church that carefully words everything, regret says something bad happened and we feel sad about it. An apology says something bad happened and we take responsibility for it. Those are two very different moral positions.

1:43:20 And you know, regret is like if you do something accidentally and somebody gets maybe a bruise on their elbow as a result. That’s a regret. Yeah. Or Yeah. Like I’m in a car accident and I, you know, I lost I I was on the icy road and my car lost control and the passenger in the other car died. Mh. I regret that. Yes. But it keeps it really It doesn’t mean it’s your fault at all. And and I get Well, go ahead, please.

1:43:49 No, nothing. Uh we could probably That was a bad example that I gave, I think, because people talk about regrets, you know, that they have in their life, and these are things usually that they didn’t do, maybe things that they did, and they live with that regret. And so, uh we’re expressing regret for this thing that, uh that happened a long time ago. and that uh I mean and the the the Native Americans shouldn’t bear the primary blame, just the secondary blame.

1:44:18 It’s it’s one thing for Irene or the church in this moment to go like we weren’t there. We weren’t the ones who did this. But that ignores how much of Mormon culture, theology, theology around things like blood atonement, things around uh obedience and loyalty. It ignores the fact that this event in this moment occurred at least in part because of Mormonism. Um so when you’re the leaders of a religion whose whose past leaders contributed whose members in the past because of Mormonism carried out an atrocious act.

1:45:13 You do have some sense of cultural responsibility for the thing that happened and you get to help everybody move on by just owning that part. You don’t have to apologize for the parts that aren’t yours. Apologize for the parts that are. And and Mormon theology absolutely plays a part. And Mormon leaders, Hinckley and Iring and others are perpetuating certain parts of Mormonism even in that moment. that contributed to this event taking place in 1857.

1:45:48 This is a tough one, Bill, but how many Mormons out there I know that the minority of Mormons uh really study their religion? Probably the same with any any church, but the minority do. But out of those, how many do you think believe in the doctrine of blood atonement? There is at least some because like you and me, we would read the the things that were written by the church and its leaders that wasn’t shared in the Sunday curriculum. Mhm.

1:46:20 And also there was no rebuttal anywhere in the Sunday curriculum. There was no one telling us not to believe that. So, we were trained to see these things as the deeper truths in Mormonism that are too risky to say out loud because they’re so sacred. And just to know them makes me more special, not just than other people, but also the other Mormons. Yeah. And we see other harm done after this moment that indicates that those teachings still run in the undercurrents of Mormonism. The Laferdes uh the Lungrens. Uh yes, of course I would never do anything about it. My belief in it is a sentent to a proposition in theory, but um I guess not everybody’s like me. Or maybe if I got really mad, I would think, “Yeah, that blood atonement sounds pretty good about now.”

1:47:24 Yeah. Yeah. Because a moment had never come along pushing us to the precipice of deciding whether we would carry out that deeper doctrine or not. And I’d like to think I wouldn’t, but there are definitely moments in my time in the church where I was zealous in the gospel, where I wanted to be the best Mormon. And I understood that there was milk before meat, and that you didn’t throw pearls before swine, and that obedience was the first law of heaven and blood atonement was meat and pearls. Yeah.

1:48:04 In a religion where you teach obedience is the first law of heaven, what do you expect to happen? What we want is we want the prophet to tell us to do something that is so difficult that it will prove our virtue and our merit by doing it. It’s like getting a um a quest from the king. You the tear the wheat and the tears are being separated and of course you will align with the wheat.

1:48:33 Yeah, I’ll do whatever my king tells me to do. Of course, my lege. Yeah. When you teach obedience is the first law of heaven and you encourage dishonesty, manipulation, obfiscation, and violence, what do you expect will happen? It’s almost mathematical in its predictability. Yeah. And it does, by the way. It happens. Uh for nearly two decades, no one was brought to justice. Due in no small measure, again, as you point out, RFM, to the Civil War, territorial power dynamics, later federal pressure, and legal changes like the Poland Act, uh loosen LDS control of territorial courts, finally making a space that prosecution was possible.

1:49:27 John D. Lee was made the scapegoat for the ordeal. He was excommunicated in 1870. He was ex uh he was arrested in 1874. He was tried in 1875, a hung jury and then convicted in a second trial and executed by firing squad at Mountain Meadows on March 28th, 1877. His execution site, there’s a plaque there and it’s just a hundred yards away. It it’s essentially they sat him down on the outside of this in of this mountain meadow for him to look across where this event had taken place uh just as he’s about to be executed. And you can see the picture there, the red the red bordered picture. John D. Lee uh is seated beside his coffin just before his execution.

1:50:22 And then there’s a photo in the top right of the event as well. And there were tons of uh writeups on this. There’s a few more of them. Um excommunicated four years before he was arrested. Isn’t that a weird thing? It seems weird to me. Excommunicated four years before he’s arrested. Was President Hate. Was he excommunicated? I do not know. Were the others Nephi Johnson or whatever his name was back there?

1:50:55 I do not know. I could guess, but it would just be a guess. If if this was a good church that operated on real ethics and morals, wouldn’t this church have tried to figure out how to hold everyone involved accountable and see them punished to the fullest extent of the law? These are murderers. These are coldhearted murderers. John De Lee and Isaac Hate were the only two formerly excommunicated by the church.

1:51:31 H but Isaac 1970. But he wasn’t arrested or prosecuted, was he? I don’t believe so. No. Why would this church protect everyone but one or two of the people who committed this act? I don’t know. But let me give a little bit more detail. A grand jury indicted nine men, which means the grand jury found sufficient evidence that that charges could be filed against nine men. But only John D. Lee was tried, convicted, and executed for the murders in 1877.

1:52:02 And those other men gave their testimony that was in some ways incriminating so as to see that John D. Lee was the scapegoat. Yeah. I don’t know if it was the nine men, the other eight men who were indicted, who were giving testimony against him, but obviously they were there to be witnesses or at least present as having been there. When John de Lee was executed in 1877 for his role in the Mountain Meadow Massacre, he maintained to the end that he was not acting alone. Just before the execution by firing squad, he said, quote, “I am a victim. I am sacrificed in a cowardly, dastardly manner,” unquote.

1:52:45 Isn’t it amazing that a person who was there and in charge in a large degree, if not completely, of a massacre of 120 to 150 men, women, and children can say as part of his last words, “I am a victim.” Yeah. But in Mormonism, aren’t we all? I guess so because I almost said f you John D. Lee. Yeah. Not in the way that lets him off for sure. But when you grow up in a system where you’re manipulated into obedience, manipulated into trusting emotional feelings over logic, manipulated into following certain men as if they speak to God when they’re clueless to that.

1:53:34 Aren’t we all victims in at least a small way? He’s getting what he deserved. He was just mad that other people didn’t get it, too. He also made it clear that he believed he was being made a scapegoat. He said, “I did nothing wrong. I believed I was doing right.” See, here’s why is he’s he’s justifying the actions because all he did was be obedient. And just like in the military, by the way, we can talk about this for maybe just a moment. Uh I think of the movie A Few Good Men and A Code Red. You know what I’m talking about, right? Crystal clear. Yeah.

1:54:10 There’s this there’s this fine line in the military where you are being given assignments, orders to do things. And often in war specifically, those orders are right at the line of what’s right and wrong. And your job is to follow those orders completely. And if you disobey those orders, there is punishment for you. And the only out you have is if you can clearly demonstrate that what you were asked to do crosses over that line.

1:54:52 The pressure on you to get it right as a 20-year-old soldier in the military, it’s unfair. It is. It’s too heavy a burden for a kid to make those kinds of decisions. It’s not even a decision. I mean, really, there is no decision. You do what you’re told. Period. Yeah. The the wherewithal to push back against those in authority. And military authority is one thing. These are the people who speak for God and hold the keys to your salvation.

1:55:38 The weight of making that decision. And yet I will say here, every person has to on their own grounds stand up against those who tell you to do things which are unethical. and irresponsible and wrong. And I also on the other side of the coin say that there are systems and rules where that is almost nearly impossible to actually do. Okay. Uh what kind of system was this where men like Lee believed this was what God and LDS leadership required?

1:56:24 Again, he’s not off the hook at all, but his ability to go like, “All I did was do what my priesthood leaders told me.” And I’m the one getting hung out to dry. Yeah. Yeah. Uh we’ve we’re we’re almost approaching eight. We’ve got just a little bit left. I’m hoping we can sort of pass through this quickly. The memorial Karen Brevitt Major James H. Carlton, captain of the first draons from California, arrived at the Meadows at approximately the same time in 1859 as Captain Lynch, excuse me, and Dr.

1:56:56 Forny. He says, “I observed that nearly every skull I saw had been shot through with a rifle or revolver bullets. I did not see one that had been broke I did not see one that had been broken in with stones.” again, Native American weapons perhaps, right? The significance being that all of these people were Yeah. shot presumably by somebody with a rifle. And uh someone else had said that they thought the Native Americans out there had around three rifles amongst all of them.

1:57:30 Yeah. Which would not have been sufficient to do this kind of act. Dr. Brewer showed me one that probably of a boy of 18 which had been fractured and slit doubtless by two blows of a Bowie knife or other instrument of that character. I saw several bones of what must have been very small children. Dr. Brewer says from what he saw he thinks some infants were butchered. The mothers doubtless had these in their arms in the same shot or blow may have deprived both of life.

1:58:04 The scene of the massacre, even at this late day, was horrible to look upon. Women’s hair in detached locks and in masses hung to the sage brushes and was thrown over the ground in many places. Parts of little children’s dresses and of female costume dangled from the shrubbery and lay scattered about. and among these here and there on every hand for at least a mile. And by the way, when if you’re at the site, you can picture this. It there is so much distance in the meadow and you know where the memorials are of where the various events took place and you can just sense what this would have been just horrific across that entire space.

1:58:51 Yeah. This was about a year and a half after the massacre that these people are describing the scene. Yeah. At least a mile in the direction of the road, by two miles east and west, there gleamed bleach white by the weather, the skulls and other bones of those who had suffered. A glance into the wagon when all these had been collected revealed a sight which can never be forgotten. If you again, I can’t can imagine them being there and looking at all of that and taking it all in. Major Carlton’s men gathered the bones and buried them under rock cars that they had erected.

1:59:37 And again, the saying on there was, “Vengeance is mine. I will repay, sayaeth the Lord, that was ascribed to the wooden cross.” And then we get this interesting story in 1861. And this to me is one of the most shameful moments in this whole story. I mean, the the the the act itself is atrocious. But then for this to be to happen in 1861, Wilfrid Woodruff records visiting the monument at the burial place of the victims with Brigham Young.

2:00:06 Woodruff says a wooden cross bore the words, “Vengeance is mine and I will repay.” And that Brigham Woodruff tells us that Brigham Young remarked, quote, “It should be vengeance is mine and I have taken a little.” Unquote. These are not the words of someone who is condemning the massacre. Yet, this is also not the words of someone who wrote a letter saying, “Leave them alone.” Maybe he had a change of heart.

2:00:40 The monument was in fact found dismantled within a few years. H I wonder who did that. I wonder who dismantled it. Maybe the same group of people who said it should have read vengeance is mine and I have taken a little. Captain George F. Price wrote in 1864 that when he arrived at Mountain Meadows, the earlier monument had been torn down, the cross taken away and the stones scattered.

2:01:13 He rebuilt it. Scattered doesn’t mean fallen over. Scattered looks intentional. It’s been it’s been taken down intentionally. He rebuilt it and reinsscribed the biblical line. The church’s own public-f facing narrative has shifted over time towards some carefully crafted acknowledgment of local LDS culpability. The church’s topic page says the massacre flowed from tragic decisions by local church leaders while leaving out any mention of Brigham Young. Young’s violent rhetoric. Elsewhere, they insist Brigham Young did not order it and that the militia sought to cover up the crime by blaming local pyutes while leaving any mention of his continued blaming of the Native Americans or his violent rhetoric in his theology.

2:02:07 And when it comes to the Native Americans, even after he knew, in 2007, Elder Henry Biring, speaking by assignment for the first presidency, explicitly called the massacre a terrible and inexcusable departure from Christian teaching, but without addressing Young’s teachings on the blood atonement and other violent rhetoric or commenting about Young’s treatment of the original memorial, He affirmed that responsibility laid with local leaders and members and acknowledged that the Pyutes bore principal blame unjustly while never mentioning any role that top church leadership and church teachings played. This is what carefully crafted denials look like. This is how you place the blame at the local level. those rogue members, those rogue artists.

2:03:06 I don’t know where we got the impression that we should command people to get baptized after the first discussion. Yeah. Yeah. This is the kind of stuff the Department of the Interior designated the site a national landmark in 2011. There’s the plaque that stands on it. Again, folks can pause anywhere along the way. Here is the this I I would call this the overlook. And this has all the names of the people that were killed, that were involved. It gives you information. And this where where you’re looking at the image. So, if you pretend you’re there, where you’re standing next to you are little uh they kind of look like telescopes, but they’re they’re not they’re not magnifying any way. They’re just a clear tunnel and you look through and it’s pointing you to the various memorials and events that happen. There’s three or four of them and so you look through the little tunnel and then you can see the big memorial across the entire meadow on

2:04:09 the whole other side. Um but this is the overlook. So you would stand here. This is the paved road goes up to this. The other roads are dirt roads which I think is strange by the way. I think if I were the LDS church, I would want I I would recommend to the LDS church that you pave all the roads so that people you pave them. It makes it easier for people to get there. I know this is the one they want you to get to and they want it for whatever reason they don’t want it to be as easy to get to the others.

2:04:39 Um this is more sterile. I’ll just note that. Um Mountain Meadows Massacre site, National Historic Landmark. You’ve get some other stuff there. Um, what do you I’m about ready to play. Let me let me skip here. There’s the national uh landmark and the other uh memorial stone that’s uh I think still on the property. What do you want to say about this to set this up? This is just when I was up there at um must have been Thrive. It was February.

2:05:12 It was uh 2023 I believe. and uh went to Mountain Meadows to check it out. And I it was snowing. Nobody else is there. And I tracked across the the trail from the parking lot which goes sort of up and around to this place and it looks over and it just looked absolutely desolate. It’s a haunted place. You can feel it when you’re there. At least I could. And so I just wanted to capture something on video which I put up on Tik Tok. I am facing when I’m making this. I’m facing that uh that big plaque that you talked about with all the names of everybody on it. And the meadow is behind me and you can see it behind me.

2:06:04 In the valley below, between September 7th and September 11th, 1857, a company of more than 120 Arkansas immigrants were massacred by Mormons who had enlisted some Pyute Indians to help them with their deed. This is where it happened. September 11th, 1857, the Mountain Meadows Massacre. It’s kind of weird to be there all by yourself. Yeah, it it is. Uh, let me put this back up.

2:06:43 Um, yeah, it it’s it’s such a strange thing. Again, the overlook for me was a little more sterile when I went down to the actual meadow. Uh, I I felt things. I don’t think you can avoid that. like you’re you’re seeing this location where this horrendous thing happened and you get to give it some visual context uh in terms of the geography. Um, it really is a horrendous thing that took place over days planned out methodical approach to committing violence and robbery upon these people.

2:07:27 Uh, a 199 I’ll just note a couple things. A 1999 excavation for a new monument reportedly unearthed additional human remains, triggering a forensic anthropology study. An archaeology magazine feature reports findings consistent with close-range gunfire in men’s skulls and blunt force trauma in many women and children with no evidence of arrow trauma in the analyzed fragments. Not that all Native Americans use arrows, but at least in their report, they’re noting that it it was uh white settler weapons that appeared to be used essentially primarily, if not altogether. Uh, and so you can go read that, by the way, a publication of the Archaeological Institute of America, Archaeology. This was September 16th, 2003, in an article titled, “A site which can never be forgotten.” Were you going to say something?

2:08:27 Just I usually close quarters weapons would not include bows and arrows, but I know there’s an account of one little kid who survived and talked about his mom and that he was there with her and he pulled the arrows out of her back until she died. Yeah. And my understanding of the reports of what happened is that the Pyutes were left mainly to massacre the women and uh you know any any babies or children that were with them outside of the ones they uh they took off to the side because they couldn’t remember.

2:09:02 um that the that the Pyutes took care of that killing primarily and that the men uh so that you could assign one man to every male in the group. Uh that the Mormon men were essentially assigned to kill uh the grown men, adult, and the older boys. Uh so there’s that. Okay, let me uh this was the hardest part for me. the children. Um, Captain James Lynch found Dr. Jacob Forny at Beaver City, deserted by Hatch and his Mormon guides. The agent was without a man guarding his mules and wagons. Forn’s guides had warned that if he went south, the people would make a unic of him. He wouldn’t be fory anymore.

2:09:53 No, he wouldn’t be fory anymore. Lynch cheerfully placed his party at the agent’s command, though he was suspicious that Forny had employed the very confederates of these monsters who had so wantingly murdered unoffending immigrants to fer it out the guilty parties. At Parowan, which is just like the next town over here from Cedar City, uh at Parowan, the people showed great hostility and would not communicate with the Gentiles, risking their own lives. By the way, I thought this was so impressive.

2:10:29 Risking their own lives, Lynch and two companions drove Forn’s team to Mountain Meadows. Again, this is a hostile environment. The Mormons are not wanting to work with them. They are giving them scary looks every chance they get. They are in opposition. They’re the opposite of cooperating. Uh risking their own lives, Lynch and two companions drove Forny’s teams to Mountain Meadows. Lynch left a vivid record of what he saw. Human skeletons, disjointed bones, ghastly skulls, and the hair of women scattered in frightening profusion over a distance of two miles. After visiting the meadows, Forny and Lynch found Jacob Hamlin. And again, this is from a neutral perspective, so we all know who that is, but a Mormon man whose land the mountain meadows was located. And it says here at Santa Clara, but this also mistakes the fact that he’s got two homes and we’re talking about the other home. Lynch recalled that Hamlin repeated the story of the children being held captive by the Indians.

2:11:37 Angered at the deception, the federal officers pointed their pistols and rifles at Hamlin’s head and said, “Produce them or we will kill you.” and Hamlin quickly delivered the orphans. Blood of the prophets, page 219. Again, Jacob Hamlin’s hands are not clean. He wasn’t there for the massacre. So he says, but he was a good Mormon guy who was church broke and did what he was told. Right. And the lie he was saying was, “We don’t have any kids to hand over to you, Mr. Federal Officer, because the Indians have them.”

2:12:16 Yeah. But they knew he was lying. And in hostile country, they took out their guns and said, “We will move this forward one way or another.” And if it apparently he was able to find them. Yeah. If it Yeah. He found them very quickly. If it hadn’t been for the brazen guts of Captain Lynch, the children may never have been recovered. Special report. JH Carl. What’s that? That’s the special report, isn’t it? That he wrote to Congress.

2:12:49 This is it. I’m only showing it here because on the right hand side, this is the part that talks about the children’s experience. We won’t read this, but we’ll read the next slide. I just want you to see that if you again have any doubts about the the provenence of things, the historical data I’m sharing, you can simply pause the screen and read the actual original account. But I will note here, Brev Major James H. Carlton, captain of the first draons from California, arrived at the meadows at approximately the same time as Captain Lynch and Dr. Forny. Major Carlton’s men gathered the bones and buried them under a rock under rock parents that they erected. Major Carlton filed a report to Congress. Are you reading from another slide, Bill, now?

2:13:31 Oh, I am. I’m so sorry. Let me let me skip ahead. There we go. And this is the same language that’s in the report. Yeah. And this is part that we already read before, but now we’re getting the part we have not read here. The following is an excerpt from his report concerning the children. The first is a boy named Calvin between seven and eight. Does not remember his surname. Says he was by his mother when she was killed and pulled the arrows from her back until she died.

2:14:04 says he had two uh brothers older than himself named Henry and James, three sisters Nancy, Mary, and Martha. The second is a girl who does not remember her name. The others say it is Demur. The third is a boy named Ambrose. Marryiam Tagot says he had two brothers older than himself and one younger. His father, mother, and two elder brothers were killed. His younger brother was brought to Cedar City. Says he lives in Johnson County, but does not know in what state.

2:14:44 Says it took one week to go from where he lived with his grandmother, gr grandfather and grandmother who are still living in the states. The fourth is a girl obtained of John Morris, a Mormon at Cedar City. She does not recollect anything about herself. Fifth, a boy deta obtained of eh Grove says that a girl obtained of Morris is named Mary and is his sister. The sixth is a girl who says her name is Prudence. Angelina had two brothers, Jesse and John, who were killed. Her father’s name was William and she had an uncle, Jesse.

2:15:33 The seventh is a girl. She says her name is Francis Harris Horn. Remembers nothing of her family. The eighth is a young boy too young to remember anything about himself. The ninth is a boy who says his name is William W. Huff. The 10th is a boy who says his name is Charles Fancher. The 11th is a girl who says her name is Sronia Huff. The 12th is a girl who says her name is Betsy.

2:16:10 The 13th, 14th, and 15th are three sisters named Rebecca, Louisa, and Sarah Dunlap. These three sisters were the children obtained from Jacob Hamlin. I have no note of the 16th. The 17th is a boy who was but six weeks old at the time of the massacre. Hamlin’s wife brought him to my camp on the 19th instant. The next day they took him on to Salt Lake City to give him up to Dr. Forny.

2:16:45 He is a pretty little boy and hardly dreamed he had again slept upon the ground where his parents had been murdered. He was taken to the Hamlin home on the on the the property of where his family had been killed. These children, it is said, could not be induced to make any development while they remained with the Mormons from fear, no doubt, having been intimidated by threats. Does development here mean something like disclosure about what happened?

2:17:21 Yeah, that’s that’s what it sounds like is that while they’re in the company of the Mormons, they’re too scared to tell anyone what happened. Dr. Forny, it is said, came southward for them under the impression that he would find them in the hands of the Indians. The Mormons say the children were in the hands of the Indians and were purchased by them for rifles, blankets, etc. But the children, they say they never lived with the Indians at all.

2:17:55 The Mormons claimed of Dr. Forny sums of money bearing from $200 to $400, for attending to the children when they were sick, for feeding them, for clothing them, and for nourishing the infants from the time when they assumed to have purchased them from the Indians. Do you can you imagine the gull murderers of the parents and despoilers of their property? These Mormons rather these relentless incarnate fiends dared even to come forward and claim payment for having kept these little ones barely alive. These helpless orphans whom they themselves had already robbed of their natural protectors and support. Has there ever been an act which at all equal this devilish heartyhood in more than devilish and I don’t ephrtery never but one and even then the price was but 30 pieces of silver. Mountain Meadows Massacre, Special Report, 57th Congress, First Session, House of Representatives, Document 605. Um,

2:19:16 your thoughts as we as we begin to wrap up. I’ve got some pictures to share, but I want to definitely pause after the story of children who can’t remember their name, who can’t tell you. Yeah, it it’s heart-wrenching even now. Any thoughts from you? Well, it I was uh 40 41 uh around that age when it was that I decided I finally needed to find out about what happened at the Mountain Meadows and the massacre and everything because I’d heard of the story. I heard vaguely that the Native Americans were involved. Other people were saying Brigham Young was involved.

2:19:59 Other people were saying no Mormons were doing it. Okay. I had arrived at the place where I’m willing to investigate it, which is uh unusual for a Mormon. So, I got the book by Wanita Brooks, The Mountain Meadows Massacre, the seminal volume on the subject. And I read through that and I’m reading up to it. I’m reading up to it. I’m reading up to it. And I will tell you over a course of days I had expected based upon my partial knowledge that the massacre would be represented by being fired upon and then the um the settlers, the immigrants rounding up their wagons in the middle of the the mountain meadows right at a depressed position and then continuing to be fired upon until they were all dead. I thought that was the massacre bill.

2:20:59 I was not at all prepared as I read through the last chapter in this book one night at home and I found out what the massacre really was and I was shocked. I was sickened. I could not believe that this was the Mountain Meadows massacre. I had trouble getting to sleep that night. And by a strange twist of fate, by the time I woke up the next morning, which was a Tuesday, the World Trade Centers were gone.

2:21:43 Yeah. Before there was 911, there was 9/11. Huh. Yes. and a mass murder for religious reasons because nothing is more dangerous than a person who’s religious and knows they’re right. Yeah. When I think about what the major contributions are to this occurring, it’s having obedience as the first law of heaven. It’s having violent rhetoric in your theology and justifications for violence in your scriptures.

2:22:19 It’s having religious dogma and religious fanaticism. And some groups encourage religious fanaticism. I like you. I thought, okay, you know, a group of Mormon men encounter an im an immigrant group and there’s some disagreement and it it goes south and you know, it’s it’s it’s just it just it just happened. It’s just it, you know, it’s not that it’s right or wrong. It just it just one thing escalated to another. But like you say, when you read the actual account, it’s sobering to think cuz like you, I’m a Mormon and I believe Mormonism and I think I think Mormonism is true and and I go, how could a group of people like me do a thing like that?

2:23:20 But now on this side of things, I I can totally see what it is about Mormonism that at least in some ways is unique that it contributes to these kinds of events. Debbell, Lori and Chad Del. These kinds of events happening on a regular basis in Mormonism that these kinds of horrific violent acts with religious rhetoric and theology tied to them happen in Mormonism on a consistent basis.

2:23:59 Uh it doesn’t take much time to list off uh various fanatics in Mormonism who use Mormonism’s teachings to manipulate and and to abuse and and from time to time to kill. Uh okay, I’m going to just show these pictures quick. I’m going to take us off the screen so that these can be as big as possible. This is the overlook. I’m standing with Teresa at the overlook on the right. I did a panoramic view, so you sort of have to recognize that it looks kind of like it’s curved in places where it’s not, but you can see the mountains all around the edge. I’m standing on a mountainous area myself, and you can see the meadow down there.

2:24:48 Uh, one side of the meadow from left to right, the far distance from where you’re at, just on the other side of that brush and trees to to the mountain on the far end. Uh so this is uh the overlook and it was sage brush like this in the foreground that the Native Americans are reported is hiding behind at that place in the road where they jumped upon the women if they came by in the wagon. Yeah.

2:25:19 Uh several plaques. Again, I won’t read these. You can just pause and look at these, but I wanted you to at least have them on screen. uh talks about various people uh that uh were involved and what they had to say about it. Uh quotes taken and various things said. This is another picture of the overlook. I wonder I wonder if in this picture of the overlook, you can’t really see them, but in the on the concrete pad that you would stand on with the memorial to the right there, the very far bench, just to the right of that bench, you can see two poles sticking out of the ground. At the top of those poles would be these little tunnel telescope kind of things, but they’re not telescopes. They’re just just a metal sphere cylinder that you Yeah. You can’t move them. They’re not magnifying anything. They’re just empty space, but it guides your eyes where to look out in the meadow. Uh there’s another plaque. Oh, those are the two we

2:26:19 just went over. Uh there’s the overlook that we just showed. The Arkansas wagon train. So, it talks about the Baker Fanter party. I was just looking to see if that because it looks kind of like it says Elma there, but I didn’t know if that’s what it was. And who had just gotten murdered in Arkansas the month before. I think it was the month, maybe a month or two before. Who’s that?

2:26:40 Harley P. Pratt. Interesting. Uh, because the husband of the woman that Harley Pratt took away from him, who’s a non-member, to marry as one of his plural wives didn’t take it well. That’s going to be a future episode, I think, of Mormonism Live telling the demise of Parley P. Pratt. So, yeah. Uh, leaders of the Arkansas wagon train, the surviving children. And I mentioned that because it’s an additional potential motive for the Mormons to be mad at people from Arkansas. Yeah.

2:27:14 Yeah. A senator’s recollection. Uh James H. Barry. Uh Mountain Meadows Massacre Site. Uh so it’s got a National uh Park Service plaque there. Uh this one kind of tells you where everything’s at in the meadow. And so you can sort of gauge kind of where things are. There’s another one. A lot of these were duplicates, but they’re in different places. So it’s not the same plaque, but it says the exact same thing on it. Uh in honored remembrance. This I want to just see here. This is the women and children. So there’s the area of the meadow that signifies where the women and children were terrorized by the Mormons and Pyutes.

2:28:00 This is the men and boys. So, this is where the Mormon men would have shot the older boys and the adult men. Do you know what that stone is there? I don’t uh I didn’t I don’t remember there being any uh any indicator of what that was, but it is different than the women in children plaque because it has that and the other one doesn’t. You know, if we go back, this one doesn’t have it. This one does. So, I’m not sure what that signifies. If somebody knows, they could please say so in the chat.

2:28:35 Uh here’s another Plaque Mountain Meadow Massacre. This is the execution at the scene of the crime. So this is the spot where John D. Lee would have been executed. I I I wish I would have zoomed out now. It would have been nice to sort of have some context for the surrounding. But here is the execution plaque with the meadow. Um so that’s where John D. Lee would have been executed. he would have been sitting there next to his coffin gazing across the meadow uh in his final moments.

2:29:07 Uh the top one is I think the women and children memorial if I’m not mistaken. I could be wrong. And this is a straight path really. Is that right? The path that seems to curve around toward us and away from us. It it it wouldn’t be straight. You would walk this path to go from thing to thing, but it wouldn’t be this curve. This curve is because it’s a panoramic view. It would be much more subtle than this.

2:29:35 Uh because that meadow, you can see it looks so narrow in this panoramic view, but it really is. It’s quite big. Um and then this was another one that was there. Ever remembered in honor of those who uh who not I’m sorry, in honor of those who rest in this field. They were innocent and died in unjust attacks that began on September 7th. They were defending their friends and families who buried them before leaving the protection of their camp. So this is before the massacre occurs. This is in the early people who were killed on September 7th.

2:30:18 This is where they were buried. Oh, I wonder how much the church had to pay keep the word Mormons off of that. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, this is on the very far left. You see the main memorial. This is the grave memorial. Bill, I know you were there today. I never saw these memorials because it was snowing and I couldn’t even get to those. I barely made it to the overlook. Yeah. Are there is there anything on these that talks about the Mormons or who the perpetrators were? because I didn’t hear anything about that when you read the ever remembered.

2:30:52 Yeah, it’s interesting. I think I think one of the pictures yet to go will say something and I’ll try to point it out. I’ll note it when we see it, but it’s um what’s the right word? I’m it’s disappointing to see how the church chose its words. Uh so on the very far left is the main meadow memorial. This is the where the Kairen would have been erected originally. Uh that Brigham Young wanted to say something more offensive and where it was knocked over and then rebuilt.

2:31:26 Is that different from the Kairen that’s over here on the left of the photo? That’s what I mean. That’s the Karen in the left. That’s what I said on the left. And uh so then you get the meadow, you get the walking path that takes you to each of these things. Again, it’s a little more curved than it naturally is. Uh but you see the meadow there and it’s a beautiful meadow. Um, but you’ve got the Karen there on the left.

2:31:46 There’s Teresa and I standing next to it today. Uh, there’s that. Um, there are there are all these stones around it and certain stones notify you that in that very spot was remains of someone. And so here lie 29 victims of the Mountain Meadow Massacre reentered on the 10th of September 1999 by their descendants. On the left here lies the skull of a child victim of the Mountain Meadow Massacre recovered by relatives in interior on the 9th of September 2017.

2:32:31 Mountain Meadow Massacre Grave site memorial built by and maintained by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints out of respect for those who died and were buried here in the surrounding area following the massacre of 1857 dedicated 11th September 1999. The church comes off as a hero on that plaque. It does, doesn’t it? Statements by the church. So here once again it’s the extreme regrets uh a separate expression of regret. We express profound regret.

2:33:04 Profound regret that’s even bigger than just regret but it’s certainly short of an apology. The mountain meadow massacre. Another one. I think this might be a repeat of one of the other ones but it’s this it’s a different place but the same writing. Now when you get to this there is this metal gate all the way around. Metal fence all the way around. There is a little gate there that you can open up and walk in. Uh you have this these concrete uh tiles that you walk on around it. But on the very outside edge, so you can see kind of on the right hand side, you see the Kairen and the protective uh the like it’s kind of boxed in with stone and and and fancy brick and stuff.

2:33:48 And then where you walk around there to the right, you can see the fence, like the little red uh bench that’s there and the fencing around the edge. As you get to the edges, everywhere around the whole edge is a marker for each victim of the massacre. It tells you their name, tells you their uh age when they were murdered. Again, I I I think I’m accurate in saying that the average age would to me be the low to mid20s. There were lots of older teenagers, lots of older kids.

2:34:17 Uh, the grave site memorial. There’s an artist rendition of what the original Karen would have looked like. Uh, I think that’s the last one I’ve got. Uh, so I didn’t have the one, but what it said was that these immigrants were uh had violence committed upon them by Mormon militia. That’s what that’s what the signage says. And I’m glad they put it in the passive tense. And I think that makes it less uh concerning. had violence committed upon them by Yeah. They could have just chosen to say local Mormon members. Mhm.

2:34:57 They could have said uh local Mormon government folks. I think they intentionally chose the militia label. Not that it’s not true, right? But it distances the reader as far away from Mormonism as possible. Yes. It distances it from the church. The church is the good guy. They are maintaining this place. They bought it. They’ve made it here for a tourist stop for you to commemorate and honor the people who died here because of those freaking Mormon militia guys. They’re the ones who did this.

2:35:32 Yeah. Meanwhile, that same militia man was the stake president. He was the town council guy. He he’s he is uh this was a branch or ward of Mormons. Um Mhm. passing it off. Well, they’re militia men. Okay. But they’re but ordinary militia training didn’t cause this. Being raised in Mormonism caused this. Um but that’s it. That’s the uh that’s the Mountain Meadow Massacre. And uh I think often when Mormonism tells this story or its apologists talk about it or you hear the discussion happening in a ward, it has little uh time to talk about the children or the actual events that happened. And I think every Mormon in church in the correlated curriculum should have at least two Sundays a year spent on what happens when your religious fanaticism goes too far and what caused this event to happen. And Mormonism would be better off if if within the church structure members were taught about the Mountain Meadow Massacre.

2:36:58 any kind of some kind of lesson about, you know, making a distinction. You know, it’s okay to lie for the church, but don’t kill for the church. Yeah. Any final thoughts from you, otherwise uh we can wrap. I think that was it. I think that was my final thought. This is such a horrible thing. I hate revisiting it. And you know, I know that sounds selfish because I wasn’t there. I didn’t have to go through it for crying out loud. But my gosh, it is so atrocious that even at the age of 66 and after a career in criminal law where I’ve seen a lot of bad stuff and I’m somewhat inured to this kind of thing, this still gets me every time it is that bad.

2:37:43 Yeah. Uh separate thing, you know, you had all this other stuff going on this week. Uh, I’ll just say for a minute, I’m not going to I’m not going to beat a dead horse, but I want to note something in the Jackson Washburn stuff that’s been going on. It struck me, Teresa and I were listening to Kobe’s interview. By the way, I put the link in the chat if anybody wants to come in studio and talk. I see you down there, DG. I’ll get to you in just two seconds. I just want to note to the audience, uh, when you got to those sister missionaries, you saw their door open, it’s raining, you you and Wendy are having a conversation.

2:38:17 It struck me as I was listening to Kobe’s interview of Jackson because I know you so well. I’ I’ve spent years in conversation with you and and watching you tackle history and Mormonism and how you do so. It just struck me that the the logical you, which I think is incredibly effective at logic, the logical you would have understood when you saw the door open that almost certainly that they just accidentally left their door open.

2:38:48 But the lawyer in you who has had a lifetime of county prosecutor and county defender and dealing with crimes would have also gone, “Yes.” And the worstc case scenario here is XYZ. It makes so much sense to me. The way you handled that, and I’m going to set the the prank thing aside. The way you handled it is exactly how I would have expected Radio Free Mormon to handle it. Let me logically here’s what it probably is. Potentially, it could be something horrific.

2:39:25 Let me double check. Make sure you know nobody’s there. close the door, lock it, do all the things you did. Uh there was nothing out of character in what was said about that situation. So, I just want to from from my point of view just say I’m sorry that you had I express profound regret that you had to deal with that you had to deal with that situation uh the aftermath of it that people came after you and that people uh looked to bismerch your character when you handled that situation absolutely uh appropriately.

2:40:07 Well, thank you. They say it’s the greatest form of flattery, trying to get your head on a silver platter. Yeah. Well, they tried. Didn’t work so good for them. They tried. Oh my god. Well, thank you so much, Bill, because I saw you in there swinging for the bleachers in the comment section. And I appreciate your support, DG. Hey, DG. What you doing? We missed you. Saturday. Everybody was saying, or is it No, it’s Monday. I’m a bit off because of a number of things, but Monday was an RFM show and everybody was saying, “Where’s DG? Where were you on Monday?”

2:40:42 Uh, on Monday, uh, I had another had a prior commitment. Had to clean the building or something. I don’t know. Does this prior commitment involve you paying for somebody else’s dinner? No, that was Friday. And I didn’t pay for I didn’t pay for her dinner. It was uh it it was a meeting that was the dinner was paid for. But anyway, since y’all didn’t have uh the funny thing was since y’all didn’t have MAD, you didn’t have MAD on Friday. Yes.

2:41:07 Alex, Tim and I had our own version of MAD and it was we had conversations until the wee hours of Saturday morning. But anyway, well, as long as everyone kept their clothes on. Yes, we did. Uh I’m feeling quite morose right now because of this episode and I just want to say very well done, guys. Very well done. Um, my question, I did not really learn about the the Mountain Meadows massacre until just recently. It was one of many things I learned about the faith after I pretty much, you know, gave up on it. Um, but my question has to do with, so you were reading there the report to Congress there, Bill, about the was it the girl that was pulling the arrows out of her mother until she died. So, one version I had heard or or something I’d heard about this was that part of the plan was they would dress up as the Indians so that the Indians would be blamed for this and they were using bows and arrows. Is that correct?

2:42:03 Well, they were dressed up as Indians. They they’d blacken their faces. And in fact, one account says that before the two two of the Mormons came down with the white flag to encounter them, they actually were at the up at the springs and washing their the stuff off their face and putting on their regular clothes before they went down. And how long was it after the fact uh that the uh the fed the troops the uh the soldiers arrived?

2:42:30 That is about a year and a half later. It’s either March or May of 1859. But that’s not when it’s discovered. That’s not Everybody knows about this. This does not remain a secret. Everybody knows about it, but everybody is circulating the story that this was the Native Americans who did it. So this this trail that goes through the spa was it the Spanish trail? The old Spanish trail, I think.

2:42:54 So I guess that so part of the way that the word gets out is you know if you’re traveling on the Spanish trail, you obviously know to avoid this particular area or to to speed your travel through this particular meadow or this valley. This is right by the side of the road is where they did this. So, a lot of people traveling through carried the story beyond the territory. I’m sure and that’s how and and so at what point does the feds get involved and they’re like, “Well, we need to check this out.”

2:43:24 Well, a year and a half is when they showed up according to these reports. So, and I don’t know how many people were actually going through from there. I mean, they were shutting things down, winter’s coming, all these kinds of things. But um but it was something that was not discovered a year and a half later, but that’s when the the the federal troop showed up. And that’s so when they’re talking about seeing the bones, that would make sense, you know, a year and a half of decay and whatever. And and what made them know to look for the children or or was that also commonly known as well that or or the story that the Indians had them and that’s why they went looking for the kids? Good point.

2:44:03 I don’t know the answer to that, but I understand your question to be, okay, so how did they know that to look for the kids with the the Mormons? Yeah. How’ they go how then they would go to put put a gun to Hamlin’s head and say deliver the goods or else? I don’t know. I don’t know if these are also rumors that are circulating. Do you know anything about that, Bill? My impression is that because there were uh 16 17 kids, that’s a hard thing to just hide.

2:44:32 People in the community, even even ex Mormons living in southern Utah would be like, “It’s kind of strange. I’ve seen kids. I don’t re, you know, I just think I think word got out and uh the Mormons still thought they were in control enough of the narrative to say like, “Yeah, they’re not here. the Indians got him. Mhm. And and and the investigators knew at that moment like that’s not true. We’ve gotten enough information to know that those kids are here to the point where those two guys stood up to Hamlin and put a gun in his face and said, “Give me the kids.”

2:45:07 And at that point, you know what Hamlin and all the other Mormons are thinking? They’re thinking, “Oh my god, I hope we did a good enough job in making sure we killed everyone who was old enough to remember what happened.” Yeah. Because if they could do it again, they would have gone younger. Huh. Right. Yeah, because now we’re gonna find out because the federalis are taking these kids and they’re going to be asking them questions. So, I hope they don’t remember anything. That’s why that’s why Jacob Hamlin was trying to hide him and say the Indians had him. I think is Isn’t that the strongest piece of evidence of the cover up is that the kids are like, “We were never with the Indians.”

2:45:42 that and the fact that the Cedar City primary program exploded literally overnight and births of record could not explain it maybe. But and my last question because I know I’m keeping you all in and this is fascinating and and again thank you for this. This is amazing. Uh at what point did word reach the relatives back in Arkansas and they and did they start sending people to look for the kids or how soon did the relatives appear on the scene? I’m guessing it would have been sometime after they failed to show up in Los Angeles.

2:46:14 Is that where they were headed? Was LA or or the valley or somewhere out there? Yeah, I think it was LA. The the trail, by the way, the old Spanish trail, there’s a north trail, sort of a centered trail and a south trail. They all diverge at a certain part uh in southern Utah uh but also further west and east. But generally, the trails are overlapping for 80% of the trail. And it does go from uh New Mexico. What’s the place? Santa Fe, New Mexico. Uh, all the way to Los Angeles.

2:46:43 Does it bypass Death Valley? Does it Does it go through Death Valley or do you know? Yeah, I don’t know that. I can look it up. I can do that. I was just curious. I was just, like I said, I was curious how how long it took Word to reach the relatives. And this was the second uh there was an advanced group that Bridger took first and then when life was good and they made it to LA, they wrote back and said, “Hey, come west.” And it was the second party that actually got stuck there and and was massacred. Correct.

2:47:13 I don’t know that. I I know that obviously immigrant groups on wagon would have been traveling all the time. Not necessarily like all at the same moment, but you know, it it wouldn’t be unusual for every every month to see somebody coming through um as people are just they’re trying to start a new life and gain new ground out west. That was one thing that really struck me though when I read that book by Wanita Brooks was how many wagons and trains were on these trails by over by the Plat River, you know, and um tons of people and you’d meet other people going and coming and going the same way and if if you liked each other, you could join up into another group. And the other thing that struck me is that uh the Mormons out there in Utah, they had like the only 7-Eleven in the entire desert and everybody has to come to them and pay whatever prices they’re asking in order to get uh resupplied.

2:48:17 Yeah. Yeah. And I will also say uh just to try and be as fair and objective as I can, all these circumstances coming together, these people who got massacred, but before they get massacred, they need to resupply. They are not being allowed to resupply. And I can imagine that they would be angry about the situation and maybe say things that they wouldn’t say otherwise. I’m not trying to justify anything. I’m just saying, yeah, there’s a lot of things going back and forth here because they need the re the um the supplies and they’re not getting them because the Mormons are holding them because the army’s coming down and martial law has been declared by Brigham Young.

2:48:58 So, the land was uh turned into a national monument in 2011. Did the church own it prior to that and maintain it prior to that? I don’t know that. Um, I know that when Hinckley and I and all that went down, it it’s just this moment where they’re finally willing to go, we should take the impetus in doing something here. We must show deep regret for doing for the longest time. It was it was uh the the the the grounds were not tended to. the uh the the the Kairen that would have been replaced would have sat there for years and years. But yeah, it it really was about time that the church stepped up and did the thing it should have done all along, right?

2:49:45 The Mormon church wanted this forgotten. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And they only the only reason they did this at all, I believe, is because of the negative publicity they were getting. So they tried to do this in order to put a positive spin on it and make them look as good as they could under the circumstances in the same way that they’re going to constantly have to deal with the race and priesthood issue until they do something different. So to some extent we get to go kudos to the church for finally doing something here.

2:50:22 There e even with this there are still things that are in ways unresolved right profound regret rather than saying like yeah our religious ideology contributed to this and we are accountable for doing better. Yeah. Can I say that this is a horrible thing that happened? It shows a sickness of the soul and it’s easy to say that from this vantage point because it’s people that I’ve never met who lived a long time ago, right? And it did something absolutely atrocious.

2:50:51 But I think I think that to the extent that we as apologists or Mormons seek to justify in any degree what it was they did, I think that we are showing that we suffer from the same sickness in some measure. Well, very well done. I appreciate this episode and I think many of us in the comments agree, but this was this was marvelous and uh yeah, I think if you do a follow-up with what happened to Parley P and his final days, that’s also an interesting story as well. But Bill, it’s good to see you and thanks for having me on, gentlemen. Thank you so much. Good to see you, DG. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.

2:51:34 All right. Now, we went from DG to DF. So, as DFW, I got to tell everybody, this is all Bill. This is Bill’s show. This was his idea, his subject. He did all this research, all the slides, everything. This is all Bill. So, everything that everybody saying good about the show, I just want to make sure you know who it was, who’s behind it all. Thank you. Well, thank you, Bill. Thank you, DF. Yeah. Um, great episode tonight. Um, disturbing.

2:52:05 Um uh this you know also I wanted to mention a couple of things. Um one with this um lawsuit going on with John Delin I think we really need to throw as much support behind Mormon stories and all that. Um because if they are allowed to win in this situation, they’ll come after you guys next and everyone else next. Um but yeah, um can I just to speak to that for a second? Yeah, our both behind the scenes. We were going to set this topic aside because this could be covered anytime. Uh we were going to set this aside. We had uh reached out to John, but John was simply had something in his schedule, but we were going to spend tonight uh giving him a chance to answer questions and uh talk out loud about what he’s got going on. Uh 100% agree with you. Uh would encourage everybody. John has listed three different ways for people to support. Uh you can donate to help uh uh cover some of the legal cost. Uh, I don’t remember what the third one was,

2:53:19 but I know the second one, which which I think is a really big deal, is anybody who sees post out there from believers who took the church’s framing of this whole ordeal and then made conclusions and piled on vitriol on John and Mormon stories to make screenshots of all of those because if it if the church was dishonest in its framing and it caused John Delin and Mormon stories harm. There are ways in which there are legal avenues to pursue that and and so if people would collect those screenshots, it would go to great lengths to help John and RFM. Do you remember what the third thing was that I don’t? I don’t either. I’m sorry. Yep. John.

2:54:06 Oh. Um if anyone has legal expertise to join to join the legal team. Yeah. Yeah, that’s what it was. Yeah. Thank you. That was it. Thank you, DF. Thank you for remembering. Yeah. And um yeah, this this just really bothers me cuz like I said, if they do this, they’ll come after you guys and everyone else. Um they’re going to come after all the critics of the church. They’re going to find one way or another, one reason or another, whether it’s RFM’s name or whatever it is, you know. Um, and it’s it’s just funny how um how God changes his mind every time he gets a new prophet.

2:54:51 Yeah. When uh when uh um Nelson when Nelson was prophet, God changed his mind to what Nelson believed before he became prophet. And now we have a lawyer prophet. and uh God is, you know, on the side of lawyers now and legal battles and making a tie-in between that and Mountain Meadows. It’s interesting the reaction that I’m seeing from a lot of Mormons is that the church now going after John Delin. They are going huzzah huzzah, bring down the great Antichrist.

2:55:25 Yeah. And it’s Mormon stories and we’re not, you know, they’re not supposed to call the people Mormons anymore. You have to be members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You got to get that Jesus Christ in there, right? They might as well be saying crucify him. Crucifying him, Bill. But that doesn’t count anymore because we have a new prophet now. So, yeah, by the way, Mormon stories, they are Mormon stories. And uh Mormon discussions, they are Mormon discussions.

2:55:57 It is a strange thing when you don’t like a word. You want to get away from a word. And that word means anybody that outflows from Joseph Smith’s founding of a church, not just the LDS church. And yet this thing is so strange that on one hand it wants its members to be grossed out and detest the word and on the other hand it wants the word to exist out in the internet to belong completely to them. It’s kind of like, well, I think I think God just changed his mind. That tends to happen when a new prophet gets in, you know? He he tends to go with the prophet. He’s not he’s not very absurd, at least not anymore. He’s more like kind of passive and just says, “Hey, what do you think?

2:56:41 You’re my prophet now. What do you think? Give me your ideas.“ You know, that’s that’s how God rolls. But Mormon God. So, um, oh, I wanted to say RFM, did you get my email that I sent you? Uh, did I get it? I don’t know. Okay. Well, um, maybe I did. One thing, did you send me something that was And I haven’t opened it. It’s supposed to be Tell You tell me. Um, that you wrote. Yes, I sent you something that I wrote.

2:57:14 Um, and you should actually be able to open uh the document on Google Docs. I sent you a link to open the document. Um, but yeah, I wanted to um I I wrote like a I would call it like a semiacademic paper and it’s on um is the Book of Mormon an ideological myth? edological ed I’m not sure I’m pronouncing the word correctly io e t io it’s e t i o yes l o logical yeah I think I think it definitely is and it uh its overarching and primary concern is to explain the origin of the native Americans right and that’s what my paper is about my paper explains kind of what ideological myths are um basically and I use some examples from the book of Genesis uh about um uh the whole book of Genesis is basically ideological myth and then I compare that to the Book of Mormon. So yeah, um uh I just thought you might find it interesting. I think it complements the understanding of some of the other stuff that’s come out recently like um with

2:58:34 the grimoire and um stuff like that and sermon culture to help explain the Book of Mormon. I think this kind of complements that. But anyway, Book of Mormon to referencing the great tower that the Geredites came from. You have an ideological myth inside of an ideological myth. Yes. Yes. Definitely. Thank you so much. I’m going to let you go just so we can get Na on and then we’ll get out of here. Thank you. Happy Friday.

2:59:06 Bye-bye. Na as in Na business. Hey. Hey folks. How’s it going? Excellent. What are your thoughts on tonight’s show? Um, par for the course. I mean, listen, there’s nothing like having your cleans your hands not only clean, but pilot clean as in Pontius. Oh, pon pilot clean. Pilot clean. Yeah. Pontious pilot. Uhhuh. So, you know that it’s par for the courts for the church to do these things. M and it falls right in line with Doctrine of Covenants 24:15 where it talks about leave a cursing instead of a blessing by casting the dust off your feet.

2:59:53 Yes. Hey Na, do you know what Pilot’s favorite song was? It’s magic. It’s magic. I don’t get to say that joke all the time. Thanks for setting that up. Right. You get that one, Bill? You know Pilot? I know. I know who Pontious Pilot is in the New Testament. I don’t know what else we’re talking about. There’s a 70s group named Pilot. P I L O T. And their big hit was It’s Magic. Oh, gotcha. I was going to say the title of the song was Crucify Him.

3:00:26 Crucify him. Crucify him. Ho ho ho. It’s magical. But yeah, it it’s plainly evident that, you know, this is just a pattern that the church has. It’s followed since the beginning. You know, when you show that you’ve given people the authority to curse people, you have also shown that you are willing to sit there and let them go. You know, you’re you’re damning them essentially, right? So, what’s the physical bond?

3:00:57 You make a good point, which is to dust my feet off against someone and then the the house caves in on them the next day and I go, “Showed them, didn’t I?” It’s all you’re doing is removing God as the middleman. You’re wishing violence. You’re wishing harm. You’re wishing something negative on someone. And you’re excited when God kept his word and did it. All you have to do is remove you as the middleman and just commit the commit the violence yourself. I mean, it it isn’t that much different uh with Mormonism having the ability to ask God to curse people in that way. as on the mission in Japan. Hey, Na, did you go to a Japan? I mean, did you go on a mission?

3:01:39 No. Nope. I escaped before I had to do that one. Okay. Well, it was not rare that the elders would talk about having a negative encounter with somebody on the street or at a doorstep and some talk going around about dusting our feet off against that person. Right. I thought did you do that Dan Dan Vogle if you’ll let us know in the live chat or anybody else by the way if you were on a mission was there any discussion of that amongst you as missionaries on a bad day I mean to an extent you know uh it’s essentially priest craft as opposed to just priesthood because you know you need to know when to administer the curses and the blessings you know even on my mission I’m not sure I really had a lot of faith that that would do anything. This whole dusting of the feet, it seemed kind of extraordinary.

3:02:35 Did you believe in the power of your prayer to heal people? My prayer? Yeah. Oh, no. I was too busy giving God outs when I gave priesthood blessings. So, you didn’t do any laying on of hands? I did. The goal? No. The goal is when you give a priesthood blessing, the goal is not to heal somebody. The goal is to give God plausible deniability because you got a pretty good idea. He’s not going to come through. Yeah.

3:03:02 He needs an excuse. So if you want to heal him, God, I’m just bringing him before you. I got the oil you gave me. We’ve consecrated the oil. We blessed this guy’s head. We’ve confirmed the blessing. And we’ve done all this to say just go ahead and do what you were going to do with him anyway. God, you mean the cursing is easier. You don’t even need like to have the rancid oil in the little container.

3:03:22 Peter, James, and John had to restore the priesthood for this, right? Yeah. Well, thank you, Na. Thank you for calling in. Yeah. See you later, Na. Bye. Bye. Bye. All right, I’m just going to end it here. Uh, folks, please hit like. Please hit subscribe. You see on the screen there, please go to Mormonismlive.org. Click the donate button. help us continue to do episodes like this, deep dive into history, talking about, uh, bar complaints, uh, talking about cultural things with Wade Kristofferson and other stuff going on in Mormonism. Help us keep doing the work that we do.

3:03:59 Mormonismive.org. Click the donate button. Five or 10 bucks a month. Again, hit like or subscribe. Glad that you guys tuned in. Sorry it was a sort of sad, depressing topic, but it’s important history and it needs to be told accurately. And we’ll be back at it a week from tonight. Mormonism Live Wednesday 6 PM uh to keep adding uh episodes about uh things going on in Mormonism. RFM, what is next week’s Oh, the 29th. Actually, I’m in charge next week as well.

3:04:28 We’ve got uh an interview with a gentleman who’s going to share some of the things that he has uh written and produced. Uh it’ll be a exciting copy. I’m going to keep it sort of secret. I’ll talk about it on the newscast on Monday. Uh so tune in for that Monday 6 PM. Uh, tune in Friday for RFM’s Mormonism After Dark at 8:00 PM and almost every Saturday, RFM’s got an episode around uh, 7 PM or so. So, look forward to that as well, folks. Good night. Thank you. And uh, we’ll see all of you soon. Bye-bye.

3:04:56 Never forget. Yeah. Never for